Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to the, give yourself the chat podcast. I'm your host, Peter Lewis. And this show is all about leadership coaching and living your life
Speaker 1 00:00:08 High performance. So welcome everyone.
Speaker 0 00:00:14 This is the, um, give yourself the chat podcast and today's episode. I've got a dear friend of mine. Andrea's Kashkari um, on Andrea's very good morning to you Howie. Good morning, Peter. I'm absolutely fantastic. It's a beautiful Easter Monday. Yeah, well this, this shows our commitment, you know, the working on a bank holiday. Um, but as I think I've said to you, we're in this sort of COVID-19 lockdown all days emerging into one. So before we get onto your background, how are you keeping healthy and yeah, you're fighting fit and yeah. Um, I'm actually, you know, I'm doing reasonably well in, um, I think I struggled a bit in the first couple of weeks, but, um, you know, having, having established a routine and, um, you know, as a company we've, we've transitioned to working from home, um, we're lucky in the games industry that that's really, really easy to do or relatively easy to do, and we're still a small company.
Speaker 0 00:01:04 So, so that was good. I'm keeping healthy, um, not had any symptoms, uh, in the last five weeks or so. And, you know, considering I'm on my own, I think I'll, I'll be just fine. I'll be weathering it just, okay, awesome. Um, and I guess there's a lot of baking of bread and all that fantastic stuff that you do. I smelled from here. It's so funny because I'm literally like maybe I always do like large orders of flour. Like whenever I want, I go to the larger order just before the lockdown, uh, and now you can't get flour anywhere. So I think there'll be a real Renaissance of baking, which I think is fantastic because home bake bread is just amazing. So it's just the best thing it's as best thing. So I remember, so for our listeners, we go back, I would say about sort of three or four years now where, um, so you're, you're, you're in the video games industry and one of my clients was splash damage.
Speaker 0 00:01:57 Um, you know, AAA studio in Bromley in Kent there. And for three years we worked at splash damage together. I was running the leadership development program. You were very much part of that. You were the first part of the cohort that came through, and then you helped me develop it and refine it. And also we end up delivering it. And, uh, you've since gone on to two other things, myself included, but very fond memories of our time at splash. And one of the themes for today to explore is, is sort of company culture. And how do you create that kind of thing? And I think we've certainly had a good grounding in that, but previously also past experiences. So why don't you just give us a little bit of sort of potted history as to what brings you up to this point? You can start re present, work back or go back as far as you want. Well, that's a loaded question. I think what got me, what brought me to this point? I mean, I've, I've been in the games industry for, for 20 odd years now, and it's not my actual background. I get way back when I did a degree in chemistry and then believe it or not, I was flying helicopters for a while. And so I've had
Speaker 2 00:03:00 A very kind of checkered past to put it mildly, but, um, sort of around 2009, I fell into the games industry and I've always played games. I've always been in lower games. So I also fell in love with the industry and I kind of made a career out of that. Um, and, and probably for about half of that has been timing in leadership roles. Um, I very quickly actually moved into a leadership role after about two or three years becoming a small team lead. And, uh, you know, looking back on that now, um, I realized just, just how bad I was as, as a leader. Um, you know, like as, as most people, you know, I got promoted because I was good at what I was doing. Uh, and I got promoted into a leadership role because everybody thought, right, he's good at what he's doing.
Speaker 2 00:03:47 So you must be good at leading others. And that didn't really turn out to be the case. Um, I didn't moved on into designing, um, and I've been a designer for about 12, 13 years now. And then I splashed out my job became, became a creative director and I think it was it's, splashdown get to where, um, I really like thanks to the program that you and the leadership at splash kind of instigated as well. Um, I learned a lot about what, what real leadership was all about and also about, you know, uh, company culture and values. Um, and there's been a couple of companies in my, in my career where I felt okay. Uh, and it was, it was, it was, the project was fun and the team was, the team was great. I have rarely been in T in, in companies where the team wasn't great, the people in the ground word.
Speaker 2 00:04:32 Great. Um, but something just didn't feel quite right. And it splash for the first time everything kind of came together. Um, like I felt at home, the company found good. I was aligned with the values and with the culture there. And I, I helped, uh, you know, propagate those values and culture. Um, and then yeah, random chance. I was between projects that splash and a friend of mine, uh, Fernando had this crazy idea of let's do our own company. Um, it's, it's, it's his idea of starting an indie games, publisher label. Um, he's, he's been dreaming about this for a long time on one cold Montreal, winter, more winter evening after a couple of beers, he told me about it and I was like, well, would you like a partner? And then, so that's, that's how it rolled from there. And then, yeah. So we've, we started the company postmodern Wolf, but you know, 10 months ago now, uh, pretty much exactly 10 months ago,
Speaker 0 00:05:31 I think. Gosh, yeah. The first year, then
Speaker 2 00:05:33 June last year. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, so we're, we're, we're five people now coming, you know, soon to be six people. Um, and that's that. So it was a, it was a radical shift despite being super happy and splash. It felt like the right move for me at the time, human and, you know, a new challenge in my life.
Speaker 0 00:05:55 That's why there's quite a few things and I've made notes as you went along there, there, you talked about rising to levels of leadership because you're, you're good at your job. And that, and that happens a lot. I mean, how else to companies tend to reward their people folk for great work? They say, well, you're a great technician, go here's 10 technicians and go and look after them. And of course, you know, it's, we've often talked about it on the leadership program. You've kind of rise to the level of your own in competence. I think it's called the Peter principle. It's not, not me as I began to lose, but, but that idea of that, you just, you, you rise to that level and you find yourself what got you here, won't get you there. What gets you promoted is a whole different set of skills.
Speaker 0 00:06:35 So perhaps what unpack some of that in a minute, and then, um, the culture at splash damage. I mean, I remember the first time we did a leadership conference at scratch and, uh, you know, the CEO at the time gave Paul gave me the chance to speak to the entire studio. And the first things I said was it's like coming home, there was something really special about that time, which I know you've also carried on through to modern Wolf. And I know modern Wolf is about almost disrupting that relationship between publisher and development studios. And, um, so there's a lot of things to unpack there. Why don't we, um, why don't we just go back to that idea of being thrust into leadership and kind of, if you, if you knew then what you know now, what would you do differently? Do you think?
Speaker 2 00:07:17 Well, that's a trick question because I'm trying to catch you out. I probably like if I'm really honest, right. Um, and, and if I, if I put, uh, I, if I spot don't pretend that I'm humble at this point in time, right. I would probably not do anything different because one of the main reasons why people want to want to get promoted particularly early on in their careers is because it comes with a pay increase. Right. And at the time I was, you know, I was testing video games, so my salary was rubbish. Um, and I was being promoted to a lead tester and that came with a substantial salary increase. Now the correct Andreas would have said, no, I'm not ready to lead people. I'm going to stick with where I am and not take the pay cut, but realistically speaking, nobody does that.
Speaker 2 00:08:05 No. Um, in hindsight, what I would do differently is I would have, I wish I would have realized that my skillset has changed completely, that I was no longer testing games, but then I was not responsible for the wellbeing of other human beings. And, and at that time, what I should have done is learned right. In, in, in my spare time, whenever possible, you know, make myself smarter around leadership, make myself smarter around what it means to, to be responsible for other people. Um, obviously at the time, I didn't know that like, if I could do it, if I could change one thing that would be, it is that I would, I would learn that I would learn earlier about leadership and what it means.
Speaker 0 00:08:47 That's interesting to say that because I I've come to the same conclusion. So, you know, you and I share a similar background. I mean, I didn't fly helicopter or anything, but we had that sort of military past, um, uh, that, that kind of informs it. And, and I sometimes think having been a leader for 20 years in the military, knowing now what I, you know, if I knew, then what I know now, what would I do? And I think it would be, I would, I would become a more voracious learner about the art and craft and leadership from a much earlier stage. I've done most of my studying leadership outside of that environment. I don't know if it was just being swept up with just the immediacy of operations and all the other things that just means you don't really take the time, but I would probably take my more studious, the student of leadership I would take back then, because I think you'd just the growth would be exponential then, but I'd like you, I probably wouldn't change a thing because it brings you to where you are in life, of course, but that's, you know?
Speaker 2 00:09:41 Yeah. And I mean, my, my, my earliest memory as a leader was actually in the military, um, excuse me on that. That was, you know, when I was first put in charge, um, I never Rose to your rank. I was a noncommissioned officer at the lower ranks. I only, I did mandatory service in Austria and then I stayed a little bit longer. Um, but the, uh, you know, I was briefly in charge of a platoon, um, like during certain periods of the day when the more senior officers, uh, basically let us. And my, my very first experience was, uh, making my platoon marching around the football pitch four times, uh, before lunch, because someone talked while we were marching and I was in power and I've used that power. And what I didn't realize at all was that I not only made the March for no particular reason, but I actually kept them from the one thing that was really important to them, which was their lunch. Yeah. Um, so in the end I got them to be quiet, but it was the absolute wrong thing to do. And now every single fiber of my body screams at me going, what on earth where you think so. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:10:50 But, but I mean, when you think about it, now you cringe. I mean, I had a similar moment. It was this really small, but involves food. We were doing, um, winter warfare training, uh, with the Marine commandos. And we were in one of these big inflatable, heated tents doing a big briefing and somebody had hung up there, their Arctic smoke and, um, out of the pocket fell a chocolate bar. And what this represented to me was the Marine hadn't secured their possessions by doing their button up. So what did I do, being the all knowing sort of second half tenant, I took the chocolate bar and had it for myself thinking I'm going to demonstrate to everyone, you should secure your kit, army. What a Dick. I mean, I look back on that now. And I'm so embarrassed to even think that I thought that was the right thing to do at the time.
Speaker 2 00:11:36 And as there was moments in my, in my early career, as a leader where there's similar kind of elements where the fact that I was in charge of the fact that I have power over others, um, was abused by me. Um, never quite as bad. Um, and then usually little things, but there are moments where, where I wish I could go back and I could talk to myself and say like, what are you thinking? Like you're creating stress, you're creating mental well, you know, you're frightening mental wellbeing. You're creating stress, you're creating pressure on somebody for no other reason than, than you can. Uh, and, and, and, and then I think back on a lot of leadership that I had in my career, um, people above me that, and I see some of the patterns, right, where, where people just because they are in power, um, and they are, you know, they have the opportunity to, to make your life miserable. They do. Um, so
Speaker 0 00:12:35 That says more about, uh, either the lack of experience or awareness or the degree of confidence that they have in their own ability. And, you know, and I think you and I are humble enough to realize how actually, you know, perhaps we weren't as confident as we should have been. And perhaps that, you know, that, that exercise, that exercising of our ego was a way of compensating, just, you know, for the threat that we felt from these people that we had the privilege to lead. And I, and I think, you know, hindsight's a wonderful thing. I think, I think the years of experience bringing you to a point where you can actually, that, that that's converted into wisdom, you didn't have the, it was perhaps you knew then perhaps it was the wrong thing to do, but the wisdom now tells us actually, do you know what? There's a whole nother way. There are new talking about people's lives. And, and just, yeah. I mean, crikey, if we could change the thing, but you, but, but yeah, but, but that's what learning is all about and that's what you and I kind of get,
Speaker 2 00:13:27 I think, I think, I think you're absolutely spot on about, you know, people feeling frightened or, or people feeling under pressure. Cause that, again, it goes back to the reason why we get promoted. Right. Um, so if I, if I'm a designer, for example, and I get promoted to lead designer and I now have three or four people working just slightly below me, right. Um, if they're really smart and they're really good, I might feel frightened. Right. And I might, I might see like my position is pregnant. So by coming in and abusing that power, I put them in their place. I put them in check and that, that I might feel like I'm securing my position, but all I'm creating is saying, um, instead of leveraging, you know, the brain power of the people that are working for me and letting them shine and therefore kind of, you know, elevating myself in a way, although it would be in a passive way. Right. I, you know, a lot of people make the mistakes that they, they feel frightened by the people that are, uh, that they're responsible.
Speaker 0 00:14:26 Yeah. Yeah. Let's, let's talk about the games industry for a bit. I mean, I, I, I am a gamer in that I grew up with. I mean, it's, it just blows my mind that the video games industry is about as old as I am. I'm in my 50th year now approaching it. And so I've seen the birth and evolution of it from, from the BBC econ computer through to what we, what we've got now. Um, and the reason why we're doing this episode by way in the morning is my teenage boy isn't awake yet because if he did the wifi just gets drained with, with the Xbox getting a good kicking. But, um, it's interesting how culturally, the video game studios and particularly sort of tech companies, for me, culture, isn't about just having, um, you know, table football games and arcade machines and coffee machines and, and, and groovy kind of furniture. And yet a lot of people think that great cultures are made by just having these really kind of cool places to hang out. But you know, you and I have experienced many studios, they've got all those trappings, but are not particularly good places to live and breathe. So what in your experience makes for a good culture, I guess, for the video games industry, but it probably is applicable across most industries, I guess.
Speaker 2 00:15:38 Uh, I think, I think you're absolutely right. I think things like foosball tables and, and, you know, drinks, machines and, you know, space where you can spread out on a lot of stuff. Um, that's, that's an environment, right? Not a culture, um, and a good environment definitely can facilitate a culture. I think like the easiest for me to talk about is, is, is really spice time. If this is something that, you know, we can get onto that a little bit later, but in many ways more than Wolf is an extension of spectrum is my cofounder. Fernando also, you know, comes from smasher. Yeah. Um, but what, what was different at smash damage? Um, with regards to culture is you were, you were according to the values and the company had very clear, distinct values, right? And according to the values, you were, you were challenged almost on a daily basis to, to speak up.
Speaker 2 00:16:35 Um, you were challenged on a daily basis to collaborate, um, and you were challenged on a daily basis to, to find your own solutions and to find your own ways. And I think what was different at splash compared to other companies I've been at before is the values. Weren't just words on a wall. Um, they were what the leadership made of them. And we were fortunate that there was a couple of leaders in the company and any organization that champions those values. Um, so I think culture, good culture comes from, uh, do culture. And a company comes from, from values being lived right. And, and value is actually being enforced and reinforced. Um, you know, just having words on the wall saying these are our, these are our values and here's, here's a nice, great breakout room with a foosball table and a ping pong table and an arcade machines.
Speaker 2 00:17:35 You know, now you're getting now you're you have a great culture. It doesn't work take that. Um, you know, just because a company says they're, um, they're South Carolina or they're autonomous, or, you know, they, they appreciate mastery as a value. It doesn't mean anything if, if there is no initiatives behind it, that kind of, you know, cement those, those values into actual living and breathing things. Um, and I was really fortunate because, um, you know, maybe I was naive and, and, and zealous in that regard, but I went in and I loved the values and they resonated with me cause they're very close to my own. Um, and I was given free rein to, with a producer on my project. Um, and my producer thought exactly the same way I do with regards to the rallies with different approaches to different things, obviously with different, different human beings.
Speaker 2 00:18:31 But the two of us were given autonomy of our project. So we ran the team according to the values and according to how we wanted the culture to be, and it worked in Canada. Um, we literally gave people autonomy to make their own decisions. We trusted people. We asked them to speak up and to tell us when we were wrong and, and all these things. And over time, um, the project became, the team became incredibly high performing. And I think that's, uh, that's a Testament of, of a good culture, right? And we had very, very low staff turnover on our project and just as a whole.
Speaker 0 00:19:09 And, and of course the nature of, of video game projects is, you know, the, the, the, the pressure, the time pressure to hit milestones and, you know, the, the tendency sometimes to crunch, you know, it's, you know, it's part and parcel almost of, of the industry, but I think where you've kind of really cracked it is that that was very rarely the case. I mean, I think from what I saw, you always got the best out of your team. So give us, give us awesome that me and the listener, um, uh, an idea of it's one thing to talk about, and previous guests on us on the podcast have talked about it's more than just having a post on the wall. It's more than just the environmental factors, but how do, how do you as a leader sort of incrementally day by day, build that culture? Cause I think everyone gets that the, the, the larger, broader kind of canvas of that, but what, what, what do you actually do day by day or moment by moment that kind of starts to develop that?
Speaker 2 00:20:04 I, I think the first thing, um, that, that you need to realize when you, when you step into a leadership role is, is to let go of your day job. Um, so in my case I was a designer and I was a creative director. Right. Um, and the, the only good thing I can say about myself that is universally true is I always knew I wasn't the world's best designer. I was all right. And I'm still okay. And I have a lot of good ideas, but I wasn't the world's best designer. So I never had that, that, that kind of flow that I think a lot of like, um, you know, people at the top of their game or the top positions think that they're like, they're the best in the room. Um, I never had that illusion, fortunately, and I always leveraged, um, the skills and knowledge of the people around me.
Speaker 2 00:20:50 Um, but when you go into like a real leadership position, in my case together with my producer, we were responsible for anywhere between 55 and 75 people at the height of the project. Right. Um, you got to let go of, of the little tiny things like you cannot design, I can't design a mechanical system in a game anymore, right? Because that, that focuses me so much down in the weeds that I lose sight of everything else in the bigger picture. That's the first thing. The second thing is you, you, you have to reinforce your, your approach to leadership every day. I still maintain that, that good leadership is action, easy. Um, because it's, it's, you know, we've, we've all read hundreds of books and we've gone through your course and all that stuff. And the principles are actually common sense. And they're, they're reasonably simple.
Speaker 2 00:21:43 The hard part is to do with every day and, and repeated every day and to remind yourself every day that this, because it's easy, the best example is right. I have, you know, 13, 14 years experience of a designer. If I have a junior designer on my team that I'm talking with, you know, coming up with a mechanic or a system, I already have a solution in my head based on my experience. And it would be super easy for me to tell him exactly what to do. And I would, he would then do exactly my approach, but then I might as well do it myself. Yes, he, or she might come up with a much better solution, but it might take them longer. And that's the hard part is the hard part is not to shortcut, um, on certain solutions, but to actually allow the team to come up with their own solutions because that's reinforcing the right dealerships now. Um, so that's, that's the hard part is really just doing it on a day to day basis.
Speaker 0 00:22:36 I'm glad that you said that because I mean, this I'm very much as you know, and also that this podcast is all about just really, it is quite a simple process. I mean, a dear friend and mentor of mine said leadership is all about, um, get the basics right. And treat the people well, but you have to do that on a regular consistent basis. And it's not something that you switch on and off. It's just something that you do. And it's an activity. It's a, it's very much a verb. It's very much you modeling that behavior, but so many people will have their sense of all these sort of the complexity of leadership. It's not, it's very simple, but it's the discipline to show up everyday the discipline to do it. And you know, there's other things I'm glad you, you, you, you pulled that out. Um, yeah. It's, it's fascinating. It's um, so, so tell me about modern Wharf, this, this decision of yours and Fernando's to go to loan, perhaps realize that that dream, that you, you you'd been harboring. Tell me about that decision. Cause that's a, that's a big step, isn't it?
Speaker 2 00:23:38 Uh, yeah, it was mad really. Um, I never, I never had any aspirations at all running my own company. Um, I, as a matter of fact, that's splash damage. I was happier than I've ever been in any other point in my career. Um, I had, I had one of the best teams ever in the industry. I think they were incredibly high performing. Everybody was aligned with the style of leadership that I had, uh, and was thriving under it. Um, I was in a really good standing and communication with the leadership above me. So it, it, it was for all intents and purposes, it was, it was a dream job and it was, it was, I was comfortable and I didn't really have to stretch myself. And I think that was kind of like one of the things I realized talking to Fernando is like, I wasn't really stretching myself anymore.
Speaker 2 00:24:33 And also I had one hell of a, a senior designer coming up after me. And, you know, I was running the risk of, of keeping that person down, um, just to stay in my comfy role. Right. And not giving them the room, the room to kind of stretch upwards. Um, so when Fernando talked to me about his idea for modern move, it really was at exactly the right time and things just clicked. Um, and I sort of like the, the main reason I'm not very experienced in publishing. I started my career with a publisher, but that was in a completely different department. And I've worked with almost every major games publisher, um, out there in, during, during my career on various projects. But what I saw is as an opportunity was, and this is very much in line with Fernando's vision and Fernando's kind of pillars for modern move. I saw the opportunity to take what are you kind of practice that Spanish language that, that care of people and putting people above everything else and propagate this out from a publisher towards all the developers. And this is something that the industry just doesn't do at the moment. I think, um, most of the time publishers can be quite predatory. Most of the time they're focused on profit above people.
Speaker 3 00:25:55 Um, I'm Fernando,
Speaker 2 00:25:57 I really want to, to change that and flip it on its head, because we fundamentally believe that if you, if you care about people, they will create a great product, which then in turn cares about the people, customers and that over the long run will, will create profit. Um, so for me, it was, it was almost a bit of an experiment. It was like, can I take what I've learned at spine? Um, and what, I've, what I've practiced in a very intimate kind of, we're all on one floor where everybody was working together and can I apply the same principles working remotely with teams across the globe and can I help make those studios and companies become better? Um, so that, that's what would really kind of was like, that was the exciting bit for, um, and, and really that's, that's what we're trying to do.
Speaker 0 00:26:47 And so I guess with this Corona virus situation, we find ourselves in that model works perfectly well, really because you're a small core team in London, but you're working with dev studios wherever and using a lot of their sort of, you know, video conferencing, functionality and pieces like that. Okay. You're not doing the face to face in the moment. Oh, sorry. In person piece, but I'm presuming this hasn't really affected you too much.
Speaker 2 00:27:11 No. Um, you know, we have studios, we only actually work with one studio in the UK. Um, they're also based here in London. Um, well, no, I'll just be you as our remote ranging from, from Indonesia to France to North America. Um, and in our day to day kind of is exactly the same. We have weekly catchups and check-ins with the dams where we spend time with them. Um, you know, we work with the projects where we use Slack and I'm where one of our projects have their own channel. So we talk with the developers on a daily basis. Um, nothing really, you know, the, the, the thing I miss at the moment, I think the thing we own this is, is the human interaction, right? So actually it's great to be in a, in an office because you have an idea and someone else can immediately bounce, bounce off and that, that stuff's missing.
Speaker 2 00:28:03 Um, so I would say we're probably not operating at a hundred percent, but where we're not far. Right. Um, because we, we, we, we just step up to the visual or the video comes. So we have called several times a day, we have a morning stand up where everybody is there. Everybody talks about what they do and what their for what's are. And then we have an evening standup as well, um, where we kind of close the books on the day and look forward to the next day. So we, we very much focus on constant communication. Uh, I'm going to do the same without developers basically.
Speaker 0 00:28:35 And that, that, that, so yeah, that, that repetition, that keeping people informed in the loop and just that cadence around that's really important and then links really quite nicely with that, that thing about regular consistent activity to build a great culture. I mean, that's, that's what you're doing, no matter what the mechanism means though. Um, I just want to kind of bring us to the back end of this episode now, talking about you personally and how you've managed things like transitioning from employment to, you know, starting your own company with Fernando, um, you know, you're now far more responsible perhaps for the financial aspects of it, and you've got those dev studios there when you're faced with, I mean, you strike me as a guy that kind of takes everything in his stride, um, Andreas, but, you know, you're only human after all. So, so what, how do you kind of keep on your game or just in those moments of self doubt, how do you kind of get through those?
Speaker 2 00:29:26 Uh, well, I actually, I fall back onto, onto something that we use in the games industry for every game. Um, so for every game, when we design a game, we have, we have an overall vision and then we have supporting pillars. Right. Um, and the pillars act as, as razors to make decisions. Um, so for, for me personally, and also for us as a company, you know, our vision is, is to, to, to change the model of video games publishing in indie publishing, uh, on its head and, you know, to create happiness, um, for developers. Um, and so our, uh, our one pillar is, is basically developers come first all the time. Right. And, and so I, it's really easy for me to make decisions actually for everybody in the team to make decisions because, um, I use those pillars to help me, right. So if I need to make a call or a decision, all I ask myself is like, how does this benefit the developers?
Speaker 2 00:30:24 Um, if the answer to that is, no, I just don't do it. Um, if the answer to that is yes, then I, but then I perceive so, so we use our company pillars in our company kind of vision to help us with that. And that, that is really important right now as we work remotely, right. Because I don't talk to Fernando like every minute of every day. Um, and I trust him to make decisions in the best interest for our developers. And then he trusts me to make decisions in the best interests of all developers. So it's our developers first, then our customers, and then finances, the third kind of pillar, right? Because again, we believe, you know, hitting the first pillar and the second pillar automatically translates into his pocket in the long run. Um, so this is kind of how we, how we run the company and everyone in the company can make decisions on their own. They don't need to constantly check with near Fernando. What if something is okay or no? Um, so that's kind of what what's helped me, um, keep keeping straight. And if in doubt, right. If I have any doubts about anything, I literally just take, take a moment. And I, I think how does this support the overall vision and, and, you know, overall pillars of the company, right.
Speaker 0 00:31:36 So how did that apply then for in your personal life, when you made that transition from employment to a business owner, you know, and you had to hand in that resignation, and you've kind of made that final step clearly that the company pillars and everything else like that don't come in yet, because you perhaps haven't conceived of those. Do, do you apply that same sort of logic and structure to managing your own state?
Speaker 2 00:32:01 Uh, yeah, well obviously I have my own values and my own purpose. Um, and, and my purpose is very much, um, like again, through the training we had at smash with you, right? Like I never really thought about my own core purpose before. I never really thought about exploring that before. Um, but what I, what I realized that my purpose is very much not as a designer, um, you know, making the best possible video game, um, that's just happens what I do and at that point in time, but my purpose is very much about, um, facilitating high performance and happiness in other people. And that's like, I use the skills that I have, which is my, my creative element, my, my design element, and also the leadership skills that I have to, to facilitate that. And, um, and it kind of also jives with my personality type, right?
Speaker 2 00:32:51 So you do your, your, uh, Maya's breaks, personality types and all that stuff. Um, and that's kind of like, as I said, it's, it's more, both as an extension of what I did previously, and this is what helped me with that transition. I was like, I don't see my, my, my role differently. I basically see my clients as being differently. What the people in my care are different, right? They're no longer a team that is locally based where I'm in the middle of it, where I go in every morning and I greet everybody by name. And I know everybody, you know, personally my, my, the people in my care now sitting across the globe and they have other priorities and other means, and they have other other desires and they have other problems. Uh, so it's, it's a learning aspect for me to get to know them and find out what they need and how I can best facilitate for them. Um, but my core purpose is exactly the same.
Speaker 0 00:33:43 Yeah. And, and the, um, what I love about this Andreas and, and you may not be aware yet, but, um, the previous episodes we've had so far, we we've had people talking about coaching. We've had people talking about, um, their own sort of values and a new or talking about culture, but increasingly I'm seeing a pattern where everything really comes down to that foundational aspect of, of purpose, of values in the Simon's next, you know, start with why, and it shouldn't surprise us. And, and, and no doubt, this will be an enduring theme throughout all these episodes, no matter what we're talking about on the surface level, it all comes down to core because that, that, that time, when you have to give yourself the chance quite often give yourself the chat, it's about reminding about what path you're on, or how far you've deviated from it and making that course correction. And so it's not about sort of mental hacks and tips and tricks, it's foundational stuff. And if there's one thing I can get across with these episodes is that this work is really worthwhile doing whether you're a manager, a leader, a team member, or just want to be a better human being. You got to go to work on yourself, and you've got to go to work on that foundational piece because everything is built off it.
Speaker 2 00:34:52 No, I think, um, a lot of people, uh, that maybe I know that have the privilege to, to learn about this or read up on it or, or have instruction on this, right. Uh, I think a lot of people confuse their core purpose with riff with their jaw, right. Um, so I'm a creative director. Therefore, my core purpose is to make amazing video games. That's a very, that can be the case, but it's very, very rarely the case, right? I think if, if you actually identify your core purpose properly, and you really like for me, it's a very, very easy decision. Um, point again, I use it as a, as a razor, right. Is whatever I'm doing right now is not making me happy. Right. Because if, if, if chances are that, if you're doing something that's making you happy and you're happy doing it, you're, you're close to your core purpose.
Speaker 2 00:35:43 Right. Or it is very much aligned with your core purpose. And if you figure out what your core purpose is, you can do anything you want. Like you can, I could become a farmer tomorrow, right. As long as I use my, my farming skills to help other people get better at finding potentially. Yep. Um, so, so whatever it is you do, like the job is just, it's just the tools, right? Um, if you identify your core purpose, you can, you can shift, you can adapt to current situations. Um, like, like you're doing yourself right now. You record purpose. It doesn't matter whether there is a lock down right now, you have found other ways of using your core purpose to progress what you're like, what do you love doing?
Speaker 0 00:36:25 Yeah. Yeah, no, that's a, that's a very good point. I think it's a nice point to finish off this chat and Andreas, you know, we could kind of speak all day long on all this kind of stuff. We're very passionate. I'm really, really grateful to you, my friend, that you've taken the time to, to chat with me today. And, um, and I look forward to getting you on a future episode down the road. And I wish modern Wharf that the very best of luck and success, you and Fernando and the team there, you're doing something great. You're kind of breaking the model and your people sent it, which has gotta be the hallmark of a great game.
Speaker 2 00:36:58 We hope so. We hope to prove proof lies in the pudding so far. I think we're doing okay. Um, and you know, I'm, I'm, I'm cautious by nature in a lot of ways. And all we can do is our base. We stick to our guns, we stick to what we want this company to be at. I think time will, will prove us. Right.
Speaker 0 00:37:18 Brilliant. Andrea's thanks for joining me on give yourself the chapter.
Speaker 2 00:37:21 It's been an absolute pleasure. Thanks. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:37:31 I just love talking to Andreas about leadership, culture, values, purpose. The guy just gets it, and he's been an absolute pleasure to work with over the years and has been fundamental into the success of the leadership program that I rolled out at splash damage. And I'm glad to say that he's carried that on into his latest venture, modern Wharf, which is, I just know is going to be a huge success. Uh, he and Fernanda, they're building a fantastic team. I hope you enjoyed that episode. Uh, really enjoy speaking to my guests. And if you'd like to suggest anyone that you would like me to interview, then the conversation is going on over at LinkedIn. Can we connect with me and get involved in some of the conversations and also, uh, suggest the way the topics and the guests that you'd like me to interview, but in the meantime, take care of yourself and I shall see you on the next one.
