Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Welcome to the, give yourself the chat podcast. I'm your host, Peter Lewis. And this is the show dedicated to unlocking human potential and living a life. High-performance hello, everyone. Welcome to a, give yourself the chat podcast. This episode, I'm delighted to have gentlemen called Donald Robertson with me, who currently is, I think he's sat in there and, and beautiful Athens, Donald. Very good morning to you.
Speaker 1 00:00:30 I mean, our things, no, normally to break into a sweat, it's not the stress. It's like, you know, this has been very warm here. It's not too bad today, but it was 46 degrees centigrade yesterday. So it was kind of sweating. But I went to a lot with that news. I've clear. It went yesterday for the first team. I went to a place called LFC now, um, which was, is a site of the ancient elicits that was sending in mysteries. And, uh, I went to the temple of Hades. So electorally went to Halan, but there's a cave which they have in ruins, Sri, you know, so which they believe was a temple to hear these, which I didn't know was there. I stumbled across it.
Speaker 0 00:01:12 It's amazing what you stumbled across. We were already talking about welfare where we, how you can literally you're tripping over history in like Athens and Rome and everything else. And, you know, w w we're going to talk about today, um, you know, a lot of things amongst others, your book, how to think like a Roman emperor, um, our mutual admiration and love of study of stoicism and other bits and pieces. And we'll see where that conversation goes. I know it's gonna be fascinating, but, um, we're, we're still in pandemics. We'll kind of timestamp that's podcast. We're about sort of five or six months into pandemic. Um, I guess w what a time to be alive as a stoic, I guess what a time to practice this.
Speaker 1 00:01:52 Yeah. They cause you some insider information, but stoicism at first, actually I think my publisher thought that the book sales may, for some reason, they were a bit worried about book sales during the pandemic, but books on stoicism, we know nor have shot through the roof since the start of the pandemic. You know, in retrospect, everything seems obvious, right? You say, Oh yeah, sure. That was built in time. But I remember people being worried the opposite was happening. And, uh, yeah, I've been doing more podcasts and webinars about stoicism than ever before. So there's been nothing we thought stoicism had been claiming and claiming popularity. We thought it's going to have, we reached peak stores or some, you know, we thought it would kind of plateau eventually, but then the pandemic has made people much more interested in the subject. And just as a kind of a site, you know, actually know what to some of the best way of explaining that is that Marcus are really is the most famous, uh, stoic of antiquity lived through a period called the antenatal plague, where they had the pandemic and room and maybe is stretching things a tiny bit, but he wrote his book, the meditations and the middle of that pandemic.
Speaker 1 00:03:06 And to some extent I would, I would put a follow up, you can view that Burke as among all the things, a psychological manual for coping, with the challenges of living through a pandemic. And so that's one reason among many white people find it particularly resonates with them at the moment.
Speaker 0 00:03:28 Yeah, it's interesting. But why do you think it was on the ascendancy pre pandemic? I mean, it's something,
Speaker 1 00:03:35 Gosh, there's a bunch of reasons for that. Like, okay. My personal reasons, first of all, is the, in the field of psychotherapy, we had this thing called the cognitive revolution where in the 1950s psychotherapists cut long story short realized that our thoughts and our beliefs were crucial to understanding our emotions and the immediately spotted that the Stoics had already said that two and a half thousand years earlier. So they started to quote the Stoics. Every cognitive therapist quoted to the students and the clients Epictetus one of the famous Roman Stoics saying it's not things that upset us, but our opinions about them. And that seeing perfectly encapsulates what we call the cognitive theory of emotion, which is the central theoretical premise of CBT. So the CBT then gradually became the dominant evidence based approach to psychotherapy. And that gives to us as a huge validation and, uh, all these references to stoicism started appearing, but it also meant people could see this as a move seems to work because CBT definitely works by and stoicism is based on the same premise.
Speaker 1 00:04:50 So it validated it. And that led to self help industry becoming more and more interested in stoicism. That's my view of what happens, but I will tell you what people say to me, cause I've spoken to, I've been involved with sources of know for nearly 25 years. And, uh, I'm involved with this nonprofit organization that runs events. So for years ago, thousands of people take part. And so I talked to people, constantly talked to thousands of people, and this is what they say to me. I just echo their words. They tell me that their ancestors isn't because they see it as a Western alternative to Buddhism. So it's kind of like Buddhism and their eyes. They call it a Western yoga, but it's more consistent with our cultural values and norms. They see it as a secular alternative to Christianity. Historically stoicism was one of the main influences in early Christianity.
Speaker 1 00:05:40 So it gives them this worldview, uh, the idea of ethical cosmopolitanism and the problem with mine and things like that come from stoicism. But it's based on philosophical reasoning rather than revelation, faith or tradition like religions usually are. They see it as like academic philosophy, but much more practical and don't laugh, right? So people that are into philosophy, but this is what I was looking for. It's more practical. They see it like cognitive therapy, but it's more of a philosophy of life. So it's bigger and deeper and scope. And CBT CPT is time limited. It's a bunch of strategies and techniques, but stoicism goes far beyond dies. So permanent way of looking at things. So those are some of the things that they tell me that have in our culture, drawn people towards stoicism.
Speaker 0 00:06:26 It's interesting, interested in you kind of describe and that you probably encapsulated my own journey to stoicism. Um, and, and, and it's interesting how, as I explained to you, I served for 20 years in the British army, and I think I was introduced to stoicism or the language or the philosophy around it through Ryan holiday's work, you know, the daily stoic and, and everything else like that. So, uh, but it was interesting how, when I was engaging with it initially, it was like, well, this all sounds like what I've been doing for 20 last 20 years in the military. And, and, and, and really it was a case of now it's providing a language and a framework to reflect on everything that I was doing so that the parallels through, um, through my experience in the military and stoicism, I'm really quite strong and therefore the attraction and going deeper into it just kind of pulled me in if you like. It's really interesting.
Speaker 1 00:07:18 Yeah. I mean, this whole thing about combining show people that haven't kind of coalesced yet, but we, we keep meeting people involved with the military that are interested in stoicism, like from all sorts of different military backgrounds and that there are many connections to the system itself. Historically we could talk all day about a subject by the way, but historically stoicism has always raised a firm that has been connected with the military. I'll tell you the obscure starting point for Socrates is the granddaddy of stoicism. Like the students viewed themselves as a Socratic sect. And that's very obvious if you read Epictetus, cause he goes on and on about Socrates and he repeatedly tells his students that he should emulate Socrates first and foremost is their role model. Socrates, um, were served in at least three major battles in the Peloponnesian war. He was a hot plate like, uh, an Athenian, uh, infantry man.
Speaker 1 00:08:19 And he, I, I believe those evidence suggests Socrates was to some extent famous as a military hero, perhaps even as early in his career, he may even have been better known as a military veteran than he was as a philosopher. Um, he certainly, he was famous for both. He was a decorated military hero. He nearly decorated. He refused to, uh, Tonto in the world, um, for follow that he downed and he saved the lives of two in battle and separate battles. Um, so his story was interwoven with the military and then that influenced the whole tradition. Or we don't to Marcus really is like over 500 years later, incidentally. So we're talking about huge time span. Marcus Aurelius was not so notably late most, um, many Roman emperors, but generals. And it's possible that at a certain point in the Senate folk, we're better off not having a general as commander in chief because we want to stabilize their empire.
Speaker 1 00:09:33 We want to stop these walls of expansion. Like we need to focus on the bureaucracy. Um, if we appoint a general emperor, he's just going to start waging more Wars and stuff like that. And we want to Bev a change. So Marcus never served in the military. He was a bureaucrat room, but then the empire was invaded by the Parthians or they invaded the client. Steve invented Armenia chugger the war and the East. And, uh, and then the mock command I, and a bunch of other Northern tribes invaded across the Danube and Marcus had no choice, but then to take command, uh, operational command of the Roman army, he went to the front and lane and the Danube and took command of 140,000 men, the largest army that had ever been massed on a Roman frontier. So we start with the story of Socrates, and then we end up with a story of marks, a relief rating, the meditations. And again, I said, it's a coping strategy for dealing with the pandemic. You can also see the meditations which was written and Allegion, very fortress, um, as, uh, Marcus's attempt to cope with this, um, electric crisis that you find themselves in the middle of.
Speaker 0 00:10:45 That's interesting, isn't it now? So being a ex-military man, myself, understanding that Marcus wasn't a soldier first and foremost, but later on in his life taking command of the Army's soldiers are notoriously caught to win over. If you haven't had a military career, you're not one of ours. How did Marcus do that in your, in your understanding of his life?
Speaker 1 00:11:07 So we have these little hens that the, the, the generals on that has some of the generals under his command thought, they called him one of the guy, then the civil war with them, a video's Cassius allegedly called them a philosophical women. He thought that he was too much of a military dove, like, uh, Cassius, who, who led this opposition faction really started. The civil war was much more notorious as brutal and violent general. It is much more hawkish. Um, and you know, so I, it does seem like initially they probably thought Marcus was like a fish out of water and he was very set. Clearly. They also can't afford. He just didn't look clear tape. They wanted kind of more constant athletic, charismatic leader for the military. And they'd lined up his adoptive brother, Lucien verus to fill out rule the military of them.
Speaker 1 00:12:01 You know, he was a much more a man of the people. Um, I, he doesn't seem to have served in the military, but somehow he kind of resonated with them more, but then he died of the plague and some Marcus had to step into their shoes and they thought, well, we've got the narrow deep brother, right? Who is always coughing up blood and looks like he's going to die at any minute. Like, and the sky is, has his nose stuck in books all the time, and he's never been a room. Everything just seemed like, you know, he's, this is the worst guy to take command of this huge army in the middle of a crisis. And what we know, I would say the piece of evidence, I would point to there's a couple of things, but by the end, Mark manic war, um, like seven or eight years later, the Roman army are, the legions are attributing several Butterfield miracles to Marcus and the are no demonstrating this intense loyalty to him.
Speaker 1 00:13:02 And he seems so kind of going from zero to hero and the rise. I mean, I think it helps that he was winning some it's more popular. Um, but then the civil war is kind of a test and, you know, do they switch sides? I do the armies that are kind of, and talky and capital Lucia by, I think there was a risk that they would go over to the other side, but they didn't, they remain loyal to Marcus. Um, and so I think he won the move or somehow, um, they started to celebrate him as a, as a general, uh, very much so, um, maybe it was par. It could partly be, and this is a tricky one, but maybe there's a hen that it was because he was good at giving speeches. That, that also helped. That was a very important to the Roman legions.
Speaker 1 00:13:50 Um, so they'll argue, makes all these boring letters and, but then he also gave some quite profound speeches. And I mean, the shocking thing is Cassius deal reports, one of his speeches to the legions. And, uh, well he said this to them is, is awfully remarkable and extremely strange. It seems like it would probably have shocked them because he say stands up and he says that he's pardoning everybody involved in the civil war against him. Um, and not only is art shocking. Um, the nucleus of award reached the Senate and room first and they did the opposite and declare the USARC per public enemy, um, and, uh, seized his assets. So they escalated things. And then it would have taken maybe a bit, two or three weeks for the information to reach Marcus. Um, and he would have been in Serbia, uh, at the table.
Speaker 1 00:14:46 And, uh, it's the opposite. You have autonomous all of us. He says, I'm going to pause in the mall, which worked actually, because then the, uh, the legions fighting against him most the world, fate, they thought, why are we inviting us more? If he's gonna let us all off the hook for it anyway, like, you know, it's kind of starting to look dangerous and they assassinated their general problem, then continue the war. So he managed to diffuse the whole thing without actually having to come to blows. And he did that by forgiving them paradox fleet.
Speaker 0 00:15:18 Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's a fascinating character and, and the, and the more you kind of, uh, research and read into it, you think, wow, you know, it's, it's amazing how enduring is his philosophy or his approach to philosophy, or just approach to his own management of his own mind, but my management of his man and, and, and people around him that there's a, I don't know if you can see on my wall there, there's a framed quotes. Um, you'll be familiar with it, you know, waste waste no more time arguing what a good man should be, just get on and be one. Um, so I think so much of that and linking it back to a soldier likes nothing more than just to see and be confident in their leader by, by their deeds and their actions, not necessarily the rhetoric that they're using. I think so much of that would have played out.
Speaker 1 00:16:02 Um, I think that probably shaped things. And this also that we should say, just in terms of, for one of them, but we're paying it the language, or you could even say the rhetoric of ancient philosophy is steeped in this military symbolism. And, uh, actually the famous precedent for that is in Plato's apology, the seismic historical of an N, where somebody stands up in court and, you know, he ends up being executed, but his defense turns on a lot of references to his military career. And he describes himself metaphorically as being like, uh, like a soldier and his defense of philosophy. And he's willing to risk his life facing execution. He said, I rest my life and battle for Athens many times just to save my nation. And now I'm standing here defending the truth itself. And you guys are surprised that I'm willing to risk my life and doing that, but this is actually much more important to me.
Speaker 1 00:17:01 And you thought it would be dishonorable for me to flee from the battlefield, the most shocking thing I've ever. And yet you're suggesting that I should do the same thing. No. When I'm faced with these people challenging me in court. So this is his argument for refusing to back down way. He said that the, you know, why I didn't back down when I was in the army, so why should I back then? No, but this is even more important to me. And, uh, these men like the metaphors of soldiering and also as much fault run all the way down with what's, what's described their ideas. They usually have to use imagery and metaphors to, and sometimes it was a metaphor about the Olympics and athleticism. Sometimes there are metaphors, but medicine being a physician, but they're military metaphors.
Speaker 0 00:17:50 Hmm. That's interesting. Um, I mean, you mentioned, uh, sort of sport and everything else like this, and, and, and previously there's lots of, sort of subsets of people in groups, interested in stoicism and yet there to coalesce. Um, what other areas are you seeing sort of stoicism being practiced and really kind of taken on board?
Speaker 1 00:18:08 Well, when we started, right, so stoicism is ancient philosophy. So the first thing that we take for granted, no, maybe, but when I started doing it, everyone thought this was really weird. So a bunch of psychotherapists myself included were like, Oh, we were into stoicism and, uh, faster classicists for like, I had all these psychotherapists coming along and stealing our thing. But you know, you're not, you're not philosophers, you're not classes. So, you know, wait, no, that's normal. Like first people thought it was weird, so that we take that for granted, no psychologists and psychotherapists for the first bunch. And then we close to that with the life coaches obviously, and then that can solve overlaps with corporate training. So there's a bunch of people that weren't really doing clinical therapy, but were working with corporate clients and then the Cain of success coaches and stuff.
Speaker 1 00:18:58 So then you have Tim Ferriss and Rinaldi and guys like that who are pure mortar, Silicon Valley tapes. And what's sometimes called the success lecture charts, that aspect of self improvement. Um, you know, it's assistant kind of expanded into that. And then, like I say, there were baseball coaches, uh, basketball coaches, football coaches, again to this, tourism's all the kind of people who are anti sports athletes talking about it. And then, you know, a smaller niches, maybe people that work in presence is a book by games or social worker in prison. You know, if you're in prison and you're looking for a way to deal with that situation, wrap your head around it, um, work on your own character deal with challenges you're facing and stoicism is perfect philosophy follow up. And, uh, and then we, you know, we have the military and maybe it is by saying a little bit more about some of the connect, you know, in modern times, one of the most loved books about stoicism is thoughts of a philosophical feta pilot by James Stockdale.
Speaker 1 00:20:00 Um, who's a vice Admiral and the us Navy, and he was also got involved in us politics, but as inclusive. Well, for him, he was a vice presidential candidate and the U S at one point, but he was shot down over Vietnam at the beginning of the Vietnam war and, uh, captured tickets. This place called the Hanoi Hilton, where he was taught, showed really badly. Um, until eventually he was freed to the end of the war and just kept in solitary for years. And he had, he had read the Stoics and use the Stoics to call. So this is another kind of reason. Um, there are a bunch of reasons why people involved in the military have the ancient literature and also modern literature. Like I think we're reaching point late with some of these subgroups where we need to care. We create communities for them and join all of these dots.
Speaker 1 00:20:53 Um, we haven't started doing that really for the guys that are into sports. You know, there's many ways that we can weave all that together and point them it's so much insurance stuff, but for the military, we've kind of started to do that. Um, I wrote an article about stoicism in the military not long ago, that tries to kind of stay here's all the ways in which change and stoicism is connected to the military, although interests to exactly served in the military. And here are some of the modern books. So Nancy Sherman was professor at the U S Naval college, and she wrote a book about stoicism in the military as well. For example, there's just been all these references together and the, and the kind of making the connections for people to try and give this emerging community really only a bit of a boost.
Speaker 0 00:21:39 Yeah. And I think just to explore that most, I haven't perhaps read any as many of those texts, I'm certainly willed as a result of our chat today,
Speaker 1 00:21:47 But for me,
Speaker 0 00:21:49 The, the, the soekarno was, and connections were very much around that sort of code that you subscribe to. Um, and almost that sort of love and dedication to your fellow man, you know, because, you know, a soldier doesn't fight for an ideal it's it's if he fights for the person next to him and, and there's that sort of strong code, there's that sort of self of selflessness and service to others and putting others before yourself, but equally there's this sort of more pragmatic element of, okay, shit's happened. What do I do now, rather than looking for somebody to blame you just get on with it.
Speaker 1 00:22:25 Well, let's, let's pause Kara and dig a little bit into why, uh, there's a connection with the military in terms of the concepts that you're seeing and you haven't mentioned death, right. Which is, I think has probably must be also be another fine. So to tie a couple of things together, one of the reasons that during the pandemic, I think people are becoming more interested in stoicism is because it's forced them to engage in a mental model practices to come to terms with her and my time to think shat, maybe I'm going to die. You know, it's a possibility. I mean, we were always maybe going to die. We're were always, certainly gonna die. But, um, for some reason, like events like this, I say to people, and I don't mean like that's, I, I think that the pandemic has been generally trivialized. I have an interest in health research and then public health.
Speaker 1 00:23:18 I think anyone involved in public health will tell you that politicians need to keep out of this. Why? Because they've turned that into political football and it's led to the trivialization and many ways of as a CVS health crisis. I don't know anyone that works in health. Um, certainly in health research, um, that doesn't think that the public have been led a Merry dance by politicians in social media, spreading this information, um, which is shocking when public health is all about spreading accurate and helpful information. So nevertheless, uh, every one of us is far more likely to die of something else, then COVID-19 right. That's true. That's a terrible thing, but you <inaudible> may end up dying of something else, cancer or heart attack or something like that, eventually statistically. But you know, the fact that we're living through this just means that we're talking about it and thinking about it and people are confronting their own mortality.
Speaker 1 00:24:25 And I think anyone that serves in the military has to confront risk way and has to come to terms with our own mortality. I don't think it's a coincidence that Socrates served in these Wars, um, risking her parents of varied interest situations. Um, and then a big part of his philosophy he says, is this preparation for death and coming to terms with the concept of his own mortality, but you also mentioned this idea of a kind of a code of honor or what we call a virtue ethic, which is really central to stoicism. And I know that many of the people in the military that I've spoken to have said that that's one of the things that really resonates with them. Um, like you say, this kind of sense of community as well, and your connectedness with your, your fellow mine. These are other important elements. I think, uh, appeal to people that if they, um, told nev I've heard this again and again, from people in the military that it's the idea of or not. And stoicism seems to be one of the things that keeps coming up.
Speaker 0 00:25:29 W but, but there's also the fact that there is no point you'll never allow him to really complain among in the Barrack room, if you're whinging and whining, somebody will just tell you to shut them up and just get on with it. And there was this very sort of just, okay, fine. Yep. But I can't allow myself to feel sorry for myself. You know, I have to give myself the chat and hence the, so much of this podcast is around, what would I try and do with my clients in my leadership programs? My coaching is, is okay, so what, what next? And I think that's a strong appeal and a strong link to it beyond it, because you're not really allowed to dwell on those things. You can only dwell on what we do right now, because things are moving at such an operational pace. That the moment you start to feel sorry for yourself or that, that, that could cost lives. Ultimately the ultimate manifestation of that, of that delay and feeling sorry for yourself is loss of life.
Speaker 1 00:26:27 Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:26:29 The, the, the, sorry, but the subject of death, really for the average soldier, I mean, I can't speak for soldiers, but quite often that's just sort of parked and it's like, well, let's not worry about that. And yet memento, Mori, all of us should be more conscious of that because every second that passes belongs to death. So how do you make the most of right now?
Speaker 1 00:26:50 Yeah, maybe, I don't know. I wonder if it is definitely if you're an ancient hotplate or a veterinary way and in the ancient warfare, perhaps, but I think in ancient society in general, death was more feminine. Um, you know, cause people are maybe slaughtering their own, uh, certainly, uh, animals for foods and making animal sacrifices for the religions and things that, you know, and seeing dying relatives and things like that, you know, like death, it was much more visible in society. Um, and also the plague that affected Marcus was far more visible. One of the things about COVID is unless you've watched for deals, the few that commode broadcast from people that are working in the front line in hospitals, we are quite detached from what corporate treatment looks like, and then the kiosk, the cartilage, um, that's going on. But the, uh, the, the antenna plea, people were dying in the streets, you know, like, um, they were losing lemons and their faces were covered in sores and things like that.
Speaker 1 00:27:53 So it was much more visible things. Um, yeah, I CA I, I, I can see a bunch of reasons why people in the military maybe, and also, I feel like a lot of the people that I've spoken to suddenly when I went to the Marine Corps, um, the kinda historical aspects, uh, I don't know why exactly why that, but they, you know, obviously I liked the people that I've spoken to, um, get, particularly we offer suicides book into a hat and then chest and military history and military multi-strategy and ancient warfare. Um, and that's so that, you know, there'll be talking to me about the Roman legions and stuff. And then also talking, I've talked about Alex down to the gray and things, and that kind of all ties into that. They're interested in stoicism and Socrates.
Speaker 0 00:28:39 Yeah, I think so. I mean, as a commissioned officer myself, part of our, our training was, you know, a whole year sort of studies doc trying studies, but also studies from history. And, and whilst we perhaps majored on, uh, Klaus, Fitz and sun zoo and, and principles like that, I can see the, the interest in the extension to those things. So a lot of them are that there are a lot of, Paulos kind of from all of those. Um, so tell me, tell me about the book. What was the motivation to kind of bring all this, this passion for this philosophy and bring it in into, into a book now?
Speaker 1 00:29:14 Well, this is, this is my sixth book and, uh, I was asked by a publisher, I guess, stoicism was, there were a lot of books periods to us and I've been doing this for awhile. So, um, a publisher asked me to be a conservatism and they said, well, we need this kind of introduction to stoicism. And that's what we think of as a market for the moment. And I said, well, I've already written books like that and are loads of other books late in that. So, uh, I like to think, is there a way, is there a yes and nuance that so we can do it, but still do something different. So I thought, well, let's maybe do an introduction, but we'll do it from a very different angle. And I thought the way to do that is to focus on the example of a real historical stoic.
Speaker 1 00:30:02 So I thought that was, you know, as a founder of stoicism, we've got some cool stories about him, but not really enough for a whole book. And then I thought if only there was like a famous Stewart who was like a big deal back in his day, and about whom there was a, there were histories and archeological evidence, I thought of, rather than looking at the frost famous work, I should look at the last famous stoic of integrity, Marcus. It really is. And I just, as a little note of it that, I mean, when I wrote that book, there was people, a couple of people reviewed it and say, well, this is good, but Donald's made up all these stories or somebody recently reviewed it. And the described it as a novel. And I think, you know, the, they hadn't seen the footnote sort of like the introduction, um, because everything that's on there is based on the surviving historical documents that we have.
Speaker 1 00:30:55 So we have Cassius Dior had ODN, Historia, Augusta, and basically we know far more about the life and the rain and the character markets are really is then I think most people realize. And in addition to that, we also have a cache of private letters between him and one of his family friends, so a very important historical source. So we've got a lot, and there are many biographies of Marcus Aurelius as well, modern biographies. Um, so that I thought someone, people don't realize how much we know about him and a good way of approaching this would be to write an introduction that talks about his character and examples from his, from his life. Um, and that's one of the main reasons, uh, Roman emperor.
Speaker 0 00:31:42 Yeah. It's um, it's interesting. I mean, I, I, I enjoy the meditations and, and Marcus, and I think there's, there's so many little things that sort of helped me day to day. So probably I, I, I suspect that you probably have, uh, your, your morning routine, like a lot of us do, and I use journaling as a, as a means of, of so how can we sort of set up with the day and that sort of classic stoic sense of your morning reflections and your evening, so comparisons and everything else like this. Um, but I often just put in there a little bit of, um, you know, what would Marcus do question, and I know that features in your book as well, and that, I think that just, there's so many little practical examples of, of what he meditated on that you can use in your day to day. But what for you sort of stands out as some of the practical elements that perhaps you use in your life that appear in Marcus's reflections.
Speaker 1 00:32:37 When I wrote my first book and I described all the parallels between stoic philosophy and modern psychotherapy in the many of them, and actually I never numbered them. So I went back when I was doing the Robert and revised edition of art, and I thought, how many other, well, there are 18, right? So there's a lot of techniques. Um, and so then that raises a question of some of them more fundamental and others actually, it's a little bit hard to depend on which ones you pack out. I feel going to kind of prioritize some, but I think the most important psychological technique and stoicism is the one that I call cognitive distancing because that's the term that we would use for it. And more than psychotherapy, that isn't really an ancient name for it. And it's summed up in Epic T-TESS core theme, the most famous one, and says, it's not things upsets.
Speaker 1 00:33:25 There's better opinions about them. So it's a little bit of a psychological knack. It's notoriously hard to explain, but to do it, it's very simple. And there's a large body of modern recently that shows us as a far more powerful, psychological technique, and people have assumed before. And so consistent, inability of separating markers, referrals, separating our thoughts from external events, particularly our value judgments. So I could say that gays tall are, he's got red here. Um, or I could see he's a, an asshole or an idea, right? And the front there are these all sound like they're just descriptions of fat that are on all fours with each other, but the foster are descriptions of physical properties. And the other ones are really valued, judgements that I'm imposing. And because of the way we think that we use language, we tend to fuse our value judgments with external events as if you're just describing objective facts.
Speaker 1 00:34:22 And the students want us to undo that and to realize that when I see someone's a jerk or an idea, or I see a situation as a catastrophe, I'm not describing the event objectively anymore, I'm projecting a value judgment onto it. And the story is one it's just to take ownership for those value judgments and realize they're coming from inside does rather than being a description of external events. And that sounds like a simple thing, but it tends to moderate our emotional response. And it also increases cognitive flexibility. And this is more adaptive. So it's a very powerful, psychological technique, which to do it consistently, you'd have to practice a kind of self awareness on mindfulness. So there's two things, one wanting us to continually practice what they're called <inaudible>, which is the required for attention. So they want us to continually pay attention to the value of judgments that we make throughout the day.
Speaker 1 00:35:13 So this kind of mindfulness of our value judgments to me really is the backbone of Stuart practice. Just as about trivia, we started off talking about Athens. Everybody will in Athens, you see signs that say a Saki, because it's the word that they used to be. That means a warning or attention or danger. So if you get on the underground train, instead of <inaudible> like, uh, pay attention. If someone has a guard dog, they'll have a picture of an association or whatever. And I'll say <inaudible> aware of the dog underneath. It says, watch over who are, is the word that inches to it's used for kind of practice of mindfulness, but in a good way, the Winnie that Epictetus describes it. Philosophers used to cook beer for, it was a famous player, but Socrates just called food and Athens. And he said in the same way that if you're walking by foot, you be careful that you don't trade in a charcoal. James Epictetus says you should be also thinking about you. You're the way you're using your main and the same way that you're using your feet. Um, because it's much more serious if you harm your character by, by placing your, your value judgments on things that may be dangerous or harmful for your moral character. So in the same way that you're walking beer food, you should pay attention to your first steps. You should be continually aware of possible kid pay attention to the Weaver you're using your main.
Speaker 0 00:36:36 Yeah, and that's interesting because a lot of the leadership programs that I run, they all, I start them all by this sort of reflective piece, a no, no thy self element for, for leaders to really understand their own mind and to really develop a reflective practice. And, and quite often when we start out, it's like one another. When can we get onto the good stuff where I can really learn how to be a great leader? I said, well, no, no, no, no, no. This is the good stuff. And I think so many people miss that point is that actually, you know, to become a better leader, to become a better friend or whatever so much of it is grounded in just get on and be that good person. Um, but, but develop that in itself. That's really interesting.
Speaker 1 00:37:16 I think that was one of the things that appeals to people that stoicism in general, like, um, you know, like kind a really simple, a very general way of explaining it is that throughout human history disciplines have been divided father and father and an ancient philosophy, there was no real distinction between politics and ethics or leader or leadership and ethics. They were the same subject and just different aspects of it. And Machiavelli was the person most renowned for forcefully arguing. The ethics and politics should be completely separated. Um, and many people would say that they've been full influence on modern society and our conceptions of, of leadership and politics. It's all about expediency rather than actually being the sort of person that deserves to be a leader. And so nation, while they said, well, being a leader is about just improving your character and being somebody, you know, fractured somebody wise self-disciplined, um, you know, courageous, um, someone fair, like just, um, you know, it's about developing the character that we would want to find a leader.
Speaker 0 00:38:32 Yeah, absolutely agree with that. Absolutely agree. Um, so we're, we're kind of coming to our time. Don't, it's been fascinating talking with you, but, um, if obviously, if somebody wants to explore stoicism further, then yeah, look no further than grabbing your book, perhaps, but, but for those that are just sort of coming into stoicism, what would you advise, um, to, to get the most out of this philosophy? Would you say?
Speaker 1 00:38:56 Um, I think the, one of the things that's driven, the modern chest, this isn't everyone's cup of tea, but for many people it's the online communities changed everything. There was a cost to it, diaspora, right. There was Stoics all over the world. Um, but they didn't talk to one another way. Strangely. They just, no one, everyone was reading the meditations of Marcus really it's the people that group together and talk about how they were reading the minutes. And no, there are Facebook communities, you know, there's other rant, it's a big community. And so it kind of, for some people getting engaged with these communities simply because then they'll learn what books other people are reading, and they'll learn what podcasts other people are listening to and they'll learn what practices other people are engaged in. And then the other thing is we have this nonprofit organization that does all of these things for people it's called modern stoicism.
Speaker 1 00:39:48 And it was founded in 2012 by Christopher Gill has professor emeritus of ancient thought at the university of Exeter has written about marketing is an expert on ancient history and the organization. I'm one of the founding members of it's run by a multidisciplinary team of volunteers, including some well known office and the field of stoicism. So our chair is currently John sailors. He's a professor of philosophy, uh, in the UK. And he's a well known author in stoicism. And they run a huge blog. That's over 600 articles from people all around the world, including some people writing a bit stoicism and the military, um, from, from different backgrounds in the UK and America. And, uh, so people can look at the blog articles. There's also a podcast for more than stoicism. We have the stoic week event that we run every year. And this is leading me to blog, I guess, accidentally.
Speaker 1 00:40:51 But, uh, so the modern stoicism conference, which the pandemic had, uh, the COBOL show on, cause it was going to be in Toronto. We usually have in a city every year and people travel to it. We had it in Athens two years ago, which was awesome. So we got to show everybody the Acropolis and stuff. So that's where we'd have to have a virtual conferences, but a lot of upheaval and that, but we just don't own start. So, and it's almost free. So tech is by donation and so people just choose however much they want to P which is good. So if somebody is a student or wherever, they don't have to pay for much. And so anyone can enroll for that. We've got hundreds of people already enrolled for, and that's happening on 17th of October. And we've got like a vote over at those new speakers. Most of whom are well known authors and the field of stoicism. So if you go to the modern students as well.com website, you'll find though about Stuart Collins do it. We, you know, uh, the store system to the blog, all the things that our organization does.
Speaker 0 00:41:52 That sounds amazing. I'm certainly going to check that out and, uh, and, and, uh, look forward to attending that in October, Donna, it's been absolutely a pleasure having a chat with you. Um, no doubt. We'll have you back on down the road and enjoy us and, uh, and, and your time there, but just want to thank you very much for supporting my understanding of stoicism and, and, and also sort of paving the way for the work that I do. So thank you so much for being on the show as ever. I really enjoyed chanted Donald there on this episode and in particular exploring a philosophy which I'm increasingly engaged with in that of stoicism, but if this was your first foray or, uh, introduction to stoicism, then, um, uh, welcomed, um, it's a philosophy which can really positively affect your life. And it's, it's grounded in taking action.
Speaker 0 00:42:47 Uh, it's a very much a philosophy that is applied through doing. Um, so I really do encourage you to read further into the subject. And hopefully this episode has whetted appetite at what better place to start then with Donald's book though, how to think like a Roman emperor, the stoke philosophy of Marcus Aurelius and check out modern stoicism.com as well, and any of the resources they have on that website. And also store a con, which is a virtual event here in 2020. Um, but it's on every year. So, um, welcome to, to the fascinating, uh, insightful and applicable philosophy for stoicism, not only in pandemic, but, uh, life beyond there, if you'd like to connect with me and chat some more, uh, Peter Lewis, coaching.com is the place to do that. Feel free to drop me a line, um, suggest who you'd like to, to hear on this podcast, but also some of the subjects that you'd like me to, to engage with. But for the meantime, thank you so much for being one of my listeners. And I look forward to seeing you in the next one.
