Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to give yourself the chat. I'm your host, Peter Lewis. And this is the show dedicated to discussing ideas and philosophies to help you live a life of high-performance. Hello, everyone. Welcome back to give yourself the chat. This podcast episode got a chap called Levison word with me at the moment, and we share a military past and a few connections, but it's really as a, as a writer, photographer and Explorer that I'm chatting to Levison today and just a timestamp stamp. This we're still in pandemic. So I'm, I'm guessing Levison for an Explorer. That's this is an interesting time for you. Good. How are you? I'm very well, thank you. Thanks for having me on it is isn't it? It's, it's, it's a fascinating sort of time to sort of try and get through and thrive in the circumstances. I mean, for me, this is probably the longest period of my entire adult life that I've been stuck in one place and yeah, I'll be honest.
Speaker 0 00:00:53 The last few months I actually quite enjoyed it. It was the, the novelty of being in a home in static. It's something that I've not really experienced in, in a very long time. So I, I kind of embraced it and I got a dog and all that sort of stuff. And I just tried to make the most of the time by writing and focusing on all the things that I'd popped off for, for many, many years. And so being began was quite productive. Although I have to say now I'm definitely ready for a ready for an adventure and it's time to get back into playing someone. Well, I can only imagine, cause what we're sort of six, seven months in it's now, you know, mid-October and there's talk here in the UK of a second wave and everything else like that. So, yeah, it's an interesting one.
Speaker 0 00:01:35 I think, first of all, we have to be grateful that we have our health and, and therefore we have the opportunity to bemoan being kind of stuck in doors. And what have you, you said you've got a dog. Is that, is that recent? Is that a pandemic puppy that you've gone? He is yet Byron he's a Rhodesian Ridgeback six months old now getting very, very big and very, very heavy eating out of house and home. Well, the only reason I ask is that we got a pandemic puppy as well. We see we've got Ocho, the wicked who's 14 weeks old this week and he is in the kitchen as we speak right now. And I've given him all sorts of ethical bribes to keep him quiet for 40 minutes worth of a podcast episode. But it's amazing. It's a pretty steep learning curve actually. It's like, I don't know if you've ever if you've had kids or anything, but my kids now grown up, but it's just like going back to being a parent and I don't have kids, but he's a big baby.
Speaker 0 00:02:24 I mean, if you hear any sort of cow like noises, that's Byron grunting in the background. Fantastic, beautiful, beautiful. So writer, photographer, Explorer, X, parachute, regiment, everything else like this. What have you been doing during sort of pandemic that links to what is your bread and butter stuff? Tell me about any projects that you've managed to keep going. So well initially I kind of actually, I wanted to sort of do my bit, so I ended up volunteering for a veterans challenge or what was then called team Rubicon now reacts, which is helping the NHS, particularly on the sort of slightly macabre sense
Speaker 1 00:03:00 Of things that were working at the crematorium and body handling and things like that, which was, which was quite an eye opener. Secondly, at the very beginning when nobody knew how impactful Corona's going to be. But yeah, so that was doing that for bed. I've been working a lot on, on projects that obviously didn't involve traveling. So a lot of writing I've been working on a photography book, which has just been published and that's called encounters. I mean, if, if, if no other reason than just to go through and sift through 50,000 images that are somehow, it was a great opportunity to, to revisit some of my old trips and to collate all of this imagery and then the role of the ruthless and brutal process of, of having to hack that down to 150 photos for a coffee table book. So it was, it was quite the challenge, but really I'm very, very happy with it. It really is a sense that it's basically for me that the last 10 years of traveling, you know, a decades worth of photographs in one place. So I'm going to be well-stocked or for Christmas presents this year.
Speaker 0 00:04:01 Yeah. Oh, fantastic. And so tell me about sort of life as, as an, as an Explorer. What, what, what would you describe your, your sort of purpose or your, what drives you in, in the form of exploration is about sort of conservation? Is it about education? I guess it's a lot of things, but what would you say is that the core or the heart of you as an Explorer?
Speaker 1 00:04:21 I think it started out really just as pure and simple curiosity. I always, always wanted to see the world. You know, I grew up in a very, in a small village in, in the Midlands in Staffordshire and Dan kind of wanted to go and explore the world. I grew up on my grandfather's stories of, of the second world war. He was in Burma or, you know, in, in the far East. And my father was a teacher who also encouraged me to be curious about the world. And, and so it was a combination of, of that background, a love of reading. And I studied history at university and bringing together a few hobbies, like writing photography that, that kind of kick started my career 10 years ago when I left the parachute regiments. And I think after that, it was then how does one turn all of these passions and interests into a, a way of life?
Speaker 1 00:05:14 And I was, you know, initially it was hard work because, you know, you don't just turn up at the careers office and say, I want to be an Explorer. There's a lot of business behind it. There's a lot of creativity in terms of coming up with new projects. And then of course you then feed into, you know, how do you make it work long-term. And so for me, it was, I guess, wanting to travel travel for me has always been, that was my first love and it, and it really still is a huge part of, of what I do going to see new places and document them and, and, and record for the people who are perhaps less fortunate who can't travel or don't necessarily want to go on their, you know, their, their summer leave to Afghanistan or Iraq or places like that. And with that comes a real sense of duty to bring those stories home.
Speaker 1 00:06:00 And for me, I don't think I went into it with any lofty aspirations of, of, of sorts. And it kind of came later when I realized the importance and power of some of the stories and images that I was coming home with. It really can make a difference. And off the back of my first televised journey, which was walking the Nile and I, I walked the length of the river Nile in 2013, into 2010 to 2014. You know, I, I met, uh, a sort of a critically acclaimed documentary wrote a bestselling book and all that. But the thing that I'm most proud of is that off the back of it, I got a very nice letter from the head of the in-country head of save the children in South Sudan, who said, we've been trying to put South Sudan on the map for the past 20 odd years and it's failed and we've not really achieved much in terms of fundraising.
Speaker 1 00:06:46 And, uh, one documentary can certainly bring in thousands if not millions of pounds on charity. And, and so it made me think actually that there's not, it's not just me on my jollies, that this can have a really profound effect. And, and so I've the last decade. I've really tried to work with causes that I feel passionate about, and I'm very passionate about conservation and on, uh, uh, support of UNICEF and other educational charities. So it's a lot of things to answer. Very, a very complicated answer to your question there, but it's it exploration now, isn't, it's not that Victorian sort of, mustachioed cocky, you know, cocky sort of trousers and pith helmet, sticking flags in the map anymore. I think it's, it's about documenting change, showing people what the world is really like beyond the gaze of the sort of mainstream media and putting yourself out there on the front line, living and breathing it and, and showing people what life is. Right.
Speaker 0 00:07:41 So how do you choose which adventure to go on? How do you choose which story to sort of champion is, is it still that curiosity that you have personally, or is it driven by something else now?
Speaker 1 00:07:54 I think it has to be personal for me. I F I, you know, all the ideas of, of being mindful for all the, the journeys and expeditions, and I've been offered all sorts of random TV jollies along the way. And I've so far turned them all down because I've wanted to do journeys. That means something to me. And whether that's a subject that I might've studied at university or, or place a region in the world, that's current in the news. And I feel like it needs a spotlight shining on it. It has to be personal, the core of it, otherwise it lacks authenticity. And I think people latch onto that, and that comes across. If, if something's just made for TV, the audience is not stupid. They, they, they know that, and it's just not as organic and authentic. So I've always chosen places that I, you know, a lot of the time it's as something as simple as I, you know, I went on, on my gap year when I was 18 then and fell in love with the place, or that's an interesting person, or had a really incredible encounter. And I wanted to go and revisit it and see how the place has changed over the last 20 years. So, and that was certainly the case for places. I did a journey around the middle East. I traveled with, from Iraqi Kurdistan all the way around to, through Syria, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, and finishing in Lebanon. And that was all inspired by our journey that I did when I was 21 at university, when I traveled to Iraq during the second Gulf war in 2003. And so a lot of them linked together nicely. And I quite like that
Speaker 0 00:09:19 Just as you were describing it, that I can only imagine there's quite a, an administrative and logistic problem to crack. They're just in seeking permission, presumably to go across borders and everything else like that. I mean, how much of that has to be all in place from the get go, or how much has it you negotiating your way on it? I mean, is it truly an adventure in that regard?
Speaker 1 00:09:39 I know it really is. I mean, my, the Arabia trip in particular was going crossing borders that are, that mean lots of different things to lots of different people. So it was very, very difficult. We certainly didn't have all the permissions in place before embarking on that journey someplace we visited, we did not provision full stop, but that's another story it's very tricky and it's difficult to produce from a television perspective. And it's sometimes difficult to communicate to the powers that be within television, what you want to do and how you want to achieve it, because it's not quite as simple as going to the local embassy and asking for a visa. And thank you very much. There's your passport back. It doesn't work like that if you want to go to Yemen, or if you want to be embedded with the Hashid in Iraq, or if you want to cross into Java and Syria is different, different style of diplomacy in those places.
Speaker 1 00:10:27 So, but I think that's what makes, makes these sorts of expeditions and journeys unique is that challenge and that difficulty, and they're not, you know, it's not made for TV stuff. This is not, you know, grand designs or whatever this is, this is an actual expedition, a journey to a place that is often forgotten about or difficult to get access to and in doing so you have to go and really put yourself out there. And sometimes it's, you know, there are times when you think, Oh dear, have I overstepped the Mark here? Or is this a bridge too far? Excuse the pun. But, but so far, you know, touch once it's all worked out, I mean,
Speaker 0 00:11:03 You've hinted there that you've clearly you would have had some hairy moments. I'm sure. Which ones really? Um, is there anything that's still kind of keeps you awake at night when you think back at them? Or is it all just part of, you know, do you take it in your stride as an ex-soldier?
Speaker 1 00:11:17 I think you, you kind of have to, I don't, so I don't dwell on any, uh, any of those experiences, maybe they should keep me up at night, but thankfully they don't. I mean, we were in Iraq 2017, like I said, embedded with, with some of the militia groups as they were fighting against ISIS, that involved, you know, being in a sort of convoy of pickup trucks, driving straight across the desert, into ISIS territory, straight towards the black flags and getting shot at, you know, getting ambushed along the way. And that was quite a remarkable experience, as you can imagine, but it's often not the it's often not the sort of glamorous or, or sort of the romantics other things that, that is the most dangerous often. It's the more banal stuff like getting ill in a country or what happened to me on my Himalayan expedition back in 2015, which was simply getting into a taxi and then driving over a mountain pass where the brakes failed and the taxi went flying off the edge of a cliff. And I was very lucky to survive. You know, it was 400 foot drop and escape with a broken arm and a couple of broken ribs. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:12:17 Amazing, amazing. And so when you're doing these expeditions and you've got your TV crew there, I mean, when you're in the military, you can rely on the, on the blokes, around you and the, the infrastructure, and you just know that they're taken care of, but it's a very different dynamic if you personally select the, the crew and, and how do you ensure that actually they're not going to let you down. You're not gonna let them down. And, and you can operate as a unit as you go on these, these adventures.
Speaker 1 00:12:41 Yeah. Well, the crew, when you're away for, I mean, my Nial journey was nine months long and, and with the best will in the world, you can't pay a cruise to be that the whole time. So they kind of popped along four week long stints, I think, five times over the course of nine months. So they were only there for a fraction of the time. The rest of the time was just me with, you know, whoever my local guide at the time happened to be. So, you know, when they do come out over the years, I've, I've, I've selected my own team now. So I've got a Rudy of guy, gang of mates now, really who, who are with me, people who I trust people who've done, you know, most of them actually have relevant military experience they're ex army themselves, or, or, or at the very least, you know, the cameraman who are more specialists, you know, they've done the, the high risk and safety courses.
Speaker 1 00:13:29 So you know how to get out of kidnap situations and all the rest of it. So, so they're very highly trained, very highly skilled. And I trusted implicitly. You have to, because you know, these expeditions, they're not, it's not a one man show. It's not, it's not down to, down to me. It's ultimately down to the immediate team of people, particularly in places like, you know, in the middle East, when I was going through Yemen, you can't have a big footprint. You can't have a big circus of, of cameraman following you around, you know, it's you, and you may end up pretty much in Covo gear, looking like a local with a hidden camera. So it can be quite sneaky, be here at times, you know?
Speaker 0 00:14:04 Yeah. But that's part of the thrill I'm. Sure, sure. So you've got your, your photography book, your coffee table, but that you've, you've produced it's out there, but you've also got another project in mind that we talked about before we sort of hit record on this. Tell me about that. And then sort of the lessons you draw from these, from each adventures that you have.
Speaker 1 00:14:22 One of the other things that I do is I do a lot of public speaking and do, you know, theater tours to talk about my, my expeditions and what I wanted to do is particularly in the wake of, you know, locked down and having had time to ponder some of the bigger questions around my, my journeys is to compile a, sort of a compendium of stories that didn't make it into my expedition books and think about some of the lessons learnt from them and what wisdom I can be gained from, from travel, from expeditions, from, you know, some of these adventures. So I'm currently working on a book called the art of exploration, which hopefully does that. It aims to answer some of the questions that I get thrown out. You know, some of the curveball questions that I get asked in my Q and a sessions or all my lecture tours, and because, you know, you get some really fascinating questions there on, on leadership. Teamwork motivates me and things like that. So hopefully it, it tries to answer some of those questions and how you can then apply those lessons in, in daily life.
Speaker 0 00:15:26 So give us an example then, if any questions that kind of spring to mind that you would describe as curve ball, because you know, that there's your story as a backstory and everything else, but which questions are perhaps completely,
Speaker 1 00:15:39 It's kind of, I guess one of the, one of the most frequent asked questions is what's what motivates me when you're going through those difficult or dangerous situations. And, you know, you kind of have to think about it. It's, it's what, what really motivates you and drives you to carry on when the odds are stacked against you, when you think you might not succeed. And, and, and what, what do you then do and, and how do you turn something that essentially go very, very wrong into, into a positive? So I try not to some of those mindset questions about positivity, about resilience and about being adaptable and, and using not only my experiences, but a few anecdotes from other explorers or historical people as well too, to try and live it up. Some of the more theoretical side that we often get given in itself, help books and make it really applicable.
Speaker 0 00:16:25 Well, yeah, and I think the challenge there is quite often those well, particularly if you're describing things, it can come across as quite abstract for the personnel has not been on an adventure beyond their TV screen or whatever. And they're reading about other people's adventures vicariously. So how, how do you kind of make it concrete, this idea of resilience? I mean, resilience to the military mind is built up just through experience and all those other things, but how do you help people in a concrete way, perhaps around resilience? What kind of things do you advise them around?
Speaker 1 00:16:57 Well, so, so what I try and do is talk about how, you know, I'll use an example from me being whatever snapped up by crocodiles, or shot up by ISIS and then bring it home and say, you know, how that can happen at what the Mo more extreme side of things. But, but back home, you might just be, you know, having a bit of equivalent with your business partner, what do you do in that situation? So I try and draw upon not just the more extreme examples, but you know, what it was like for me when I left the military, for example, and I was sort of scrambling around thinking what to do next and how I sort of managed to sort of survive through probably three years of basically being homeless, not in the sense that I was on park benches, although that did happen a couple of times, but the fact that I was investing all of my army savings into trying to drive a new business, to try and to set myself up, to do what I'm doing now, and some of the risks, and I think risk is a critical part of, of all of this, really, whether that's setting up a new business or going on an expedition, it's how you gauge what's acceptable risk or your own personal tolerance for risk is, and that's around you.
Speaker 1 00:18:02 And in order to, you know, have a vision, create a team, and then how do you fulfill that vision by driving things forward? So I try and draw upon all those lessons that I learnt, not just Ross in the wilds of Africa and Asia, but also in the early days of having left the army as a third, whatever 29, 30 year old to then, you know, coming up with a plan and then applying some of the lessons that I learned, you know, from, from weather, whether that's from Sandhurst or, or, you know, things like that. And I think those more tangible lessons, you know, whether that was discussing, you know, with a team and new idea and, and falling out how to perhaps execute that idea is stuff that people can relate to. Yeah.
Speaker 0 00:18:43 And it's interesting, we talk about risk and I think quite often people may look at perhaps your situation or, or even perhaps, um, more closer to home with me. I mean, we both left the army. We both sort of set up these projects. I set up my own consultancy and a lot of people turned to me and say, well, gosh, that was that you took a big risk there. So we're not far from it. I actually thought about it. I plan for it. And whilst you can't plan for every eventuality, the process of planning allows you to be adaptable when, you know, life does kind of give you a curve ball. So ironically, some of these things that you're talking about, you probably say, well, actually I'm not taking big risks because there's, it's all part of the planning. It's all part of contingency and everything else like this, but from the outside in, it feels like they're taking big risks, but quite often it's not the case.
Speaker 1 00:19:29 Absolutely. You know, PR I remember when I was 21 and I was sat on this roof of the hotel in, in Jordan. And, you know, I think my parents thought I was on holiday in Greece on the beach near my mate. We'd, we'd been done some backpacking around Egypt and Israel ruined Jordan. And this was in 2003. There was the war in Iraq was sort of raging on that summer. And then there'd been a, it was just the start of the sort of spate of suicide bombings in the region that, that really began with that conflict. And it just so happened that we just, as we crossed the border into Jordan, a bomb had gone off in, in, in Israel, we in Jerusalem, which meant that they'd closed the Jordanian border, they'd sealed the routes to Europe. So it was all, it was all getting locked down there for very different reasons.
Speaker 1 00:20:12 And we were thinking, okay, what do we do now? We could, we could try and fly home, but we didn't want to, you know, we have no money cause we were students and knowing full well that the only other border that was open was to the East, into Iraq itself. And we're waiting, you know, on the, on the, on the sort of base of it, it sounds absolutely insane to think that going into Iraq would be dangerous. And we met this Iraqi taxi driver who told us that he did the commute every couple of days to go and see his mum and Baghdad. But he came and worked in Jordan because it was easier. The border was open. Cause obviously the Americans were in control of the border and he said something that stayed with me for a very long time. He said, do you know what the population of Barack?
Speaker 1 00:20:47 So I don't, I think it was something about 50 or 60 million, not too dissimilar to the UK 16 people. Is it how many people would be thinking of dying like all the time from, from bombs and things. And I sort of said, I don't really know. He said, well, you know, when you think of it that way there's 60 million people living in a country. Yes, there's a conflict that affects however many thousand people, but actually most people just getting on with their lives on a day-to-day basis. And when you think about it from a statistical point of view, you can be very, very unlucky to get mixed up in something like that. Even in the middle of a war zone, you know, two years ago I was in Syria, I was in Damascus and I was shocked in a really positive way to see that all of the tourist shops are open.
Speaker 1 00:21:28 So in carpets and all the knick-knacks masters town center, and it was very bizarre because you could sit in a wine bar and there are some lovely wine bars in Damascus. And we went clubbing one night, very strange sitting there having a glass of wine in, in central Damascus when you can literally hear the mortars and the bombs dropping in the suburbs three miles away. It's like being in Leicester square and hearing the bombs drop in Chelsea and people just didn't bat an eyelid. And, and I went and spoke to this cop at seven and said, have you sold any carpet? So he said that he laughed at me when I was drinking his tears. And of course, lots of other single carpet in seven years. I said, well, why, why are you open then? And he sort of cracked a joke about wanting to get away from the wife.
Speaker 1 00:22:10 But then he said something very profound. He said, well, look, you know, if I don't open, what happens when the first tourists do come back? And he said, we know that, you know, it might not be today or tomorrow, but one day they will return. And that sense of stoicism and resilience I think is really, really important in maintaining some semblance of hope in any situation. And that's what an extreme level, you know, these guys trying to hoping with, with such optimism that the situation will improve. So when you've been and seen things like that, it's very hard not to be humbled by it and complain about daily life here.
Speaker 0 00:22:47 Yeah. I mean this too shall pass kind of thing, but it's, it's what, what else could I be doing or should I be doing, you know, I can feel sorry for myself or just open every day. And then it's interesting. I mean, you mentioned stoicism now. I mean, there's stoicism in terms of more or less, I slip up a lit, but then there's sort of stoicism in terms of the philosophy of life and everything. Are there any particular philosophies that sort of guide you in that respect and sort of keep you going
Speaker 1 00:23:14 For me? I think, you know, who hasn't read the sort of, you know, a bit of a few quotes from mocks or really, you know, it's, I think it's important to keep a perspective and that's for all my travels, that's probably what I, I come back and hopefully taking away something that is, is that sense of perspective, especially when you travel to war zones or places where there's extreme poverty and people are suffering, people say, Oh, you know, how do you, how do you deal with on a daily basis? Well, I think all you can do is just come back and just be grateful for what you've got. Really. It's the simple things in life. It's, it's being able to turn on the shower and drink water from a tap and go and have a cup of tea. And it's, it's those things that, that, that really I saver actually. And I think that's hopefully a healthy way of doing it rather than dwelling on all the things that you couldn't change or all of the things, all of the people that you couldn't help,
Speaker 0 00:24:04 That comes back to your piece around resilience and what others can do, because actually we can do is control. You know, what, what is it within your, your gift to do so, but it's recognizing that actually we still have choice and there's a lot of bad things going on and there's a lot of people that have suffering, but okay, well what can I do? I go and open my carpet shop because when that first tourist comes back, I'm ready, waiting for them. TIFA standards. It's interesting. You talked about, you know, exploration is as long way off this sort of piss helmet and bygone era type of, but who has inspired you from, you know, from days gone by and exploration or even sort of writing photography, where, where do you draw your inspiration from, from those that have gone before you
Speaker 1 00:24:46 Try and draw it from lots of different places? I think one of my favorites explorers of, of the olden times was so Richard Burton, who is one of the lesser well-known ones, but this was a man who, you know, it was a real immersive Explorer in the sense that he would go to places, you know, as it was by necessity. And those that you wouldn't go away for a six week trip, you'd go away for two years, six years, he was a political officer. He was a military officer. He was an undercover spy at times, but he spoke somewhere in the region of 27 languages or dialects. Wow. And to be able to do, I mean, he translated a lot of very important texts into English. He also, he translated the Kama Sutra in English. You know, he was, he had varied interests and here's was a story of just sheer determination to, to be curious about the world.
Speaker 1 00:25:36 And he really was, and he traveled to, he went to maca in disguise. He smuggled himself into Harar, which was the forbidden city of Somaliland and, you know, survive with a, you know, we mostly got spear through the face, but he said it only chipped one of his teeth. You know, it was just quite remarkable. That's a real stoic as far as I'm concerned. Where else did I get my inspiration from? I love the sort of the post-war sort of, I wouldn't, I'm not sure if they'd want to be called explorers. Cause they're all very self-deprecating, but the likes of Eric Newby, Norman Lewis, and then more or less, more recently, Don McCullin as a, as a photographer has been a big inspiration. I've had the fortune to meet him a couple of times and of course, you know, surround finds as well. So I've tended to sort of look far and wide for my inspiration, but ultimately I think, you know, anyone can, can do this. Anyone can be an Explorer, it's just having the right mindset I suppose, and sticking at it. Come on mate.
Speaker 0 00:26:32 Yeah, I guess so thinking about what next for you then clearly you've got a few sort of projects in mind, but you know, you're getting it to your feet is now time to want to get out there again. What have you got planned for that for the future in terms of trips and adventures coming up
Speaker 1 00:26:46 A backlog at the moment, of course, as soon as, as soon as I get back on the road, you know what I'd love to do a I've I've got into motorbiking recently. I'd love to do a really long distance motorbike journey. And I think South America is the sort of continent that I've explored the least. So maybe I can combine the two there and do a, do a big trip across.
Speaker 0 00:27:07 Fantastic. That sounds awesome. Hey, let us know. We can chat all day about the adventures and everything else like this, but if people are interested in following your work a little bit more, how can they find out more get in touch with you? Sure.
Speaker 1 00:27:20 So I've got a, I've got a website which is just let us one word.com you can see on there. All of my new theater dates that are coming up next year. Yeah, you can, you can get all my books on any good book shop and follow me on social media, Instagram or Twitter.
Speaker 0 00:27:35 Oh, fantastic. Levison. It's been remarkable chatting to you. I'd love to chat to you at some point again in the future. Thanks so much for just bringing a sort of taste of adventure to give yourself the chat. And also some of the lessons that we can draw from that we'll follow your story with interest, but for the time being, thank you so much.
Speaker 2 00:27:52 Thank you. I appreciate it.
Speaker 0 00:27:56 So I hope you enjoyed my chat there with Levison. That's a classic example of a listener to this podcast, getting in touch and suggesting that I have Levison on the show and I'm so glad they did, because that was just fascinating. And I think just listening to that, you know, we can all go to that place where we imagine ourselves as the modern day Explorer, you know, following the footsteps of some of the greater Levison mentioned there, but, but equally we can all begin to become the Explorer. If our, of our own environment, even if it's not going overseas, there's so much that we can explore closer to home. And I guess during pandemic, a lot of us serve had our eyes opened to what's literally on our doorstep. So I hope you enjoyed that. Chat with Levison. I'd love to chat with him again, perhaps after a pandemic, when he gets his Explorer boots back on and to see what he's up to. But in the meantime, if you'd like to connect with me, please head on over to Peter Lewis, coaching.com, get in touch, suggest which guests that you would like to hear, and also what subjects you might like me to explore. And I thank you for your support this podcast, please share it widely it's on most podcasts platforms that are out there. And the meantime, look after yourself and I look forward to seeing you on the next one.
