Episode Transcript
Speaker 0 00:00:00 Hello, and welcome to the, give yourself the chat podcast. I'm your host, Peter Lewis. And this show is all about leadership coaching and living
Speaker 1 00:00:07 The life of high performance. So hello,
Speaker 0 00:00:18 Going to give yourself the chats. Um, I've got a dear friend of mine, one of my best friends, actually, Mike and Mike. Good morning. How are you, mate? I'm good. Thanks. How are you? Yeah, I'm doing well, man. I'm doing well. Um, so for the benefit of the one listener, my mum and I'm probably one or two more people, cause this podcast is now sort of generating some traction. Mike and I, we go back I think is about 28 years or so, mate, we, we met at Santos, this young officer cadets, um, and then we've just been sort of best powers ever since. And so this 35 minutes worth of this podcast, can't ever begin to go over all the stories and debts things that happened in our past. But I know there's some things that we want to talk about, but before we get onto that, um, how are you coping with lockdown with the family they're out near Taunton and what's going on for you?
Speaker 0 00:01:10 It's pretty good. We've had no deaths, um, like affecting us or sort of internal domestically where we've started to really get on each other's, um, weight, but I'm quite lucky. So I live in a, quite a big house in Somerset and we can just walk straight out into the field. So pretty aware that it's not as easy for anyone for everyone else. And also I think, um, as you alluded to my previous experience, any thing that you can imagine, you, um, you kind of get locked down for a living I've I immediately switched to this being a patrol, um, actually already six weeks in, but I get to see my family and there's beer. So, you know, it's pretty good for my, by some, a part of my brain just looking at this is going, you know, this is, this is a dandy, so there's, there's, I mean, you alluded to a bit of our background there.
Speaker 0 00:02:05 So we, we met at Sanders back in 92. Uh, we both commissioned into all the electrical mechanical engineers and kind of went down that engineering path. So you're a professional engineer, but then you took quite an extraordinary different career path, which is, you know, we get people transferring in and out, but you transferred out of the army and into the Navy. And you know, I went to see your pass out and Dartmouth and everything was like this and then went down a whole submariner roots and nuclear engineering and stuff like that. But you, you, you talk about, um, how, you know, this is perhaps one of the easiest sort of sub Mariner in front of commerce, um, sort of tours. And I know you wrote something recently on LinkedIn that got a lot of traction and you were kind of giving people some, some advice about just how you do managing this. So what kind of were the, the things that resonated with people the most when you were talking about lockdown in a submarine, in a sense? Well, a couple of
Speaker 2 00:03:00 Afflicted on that sentence, but it was one of the things, I mean, that particular tool was just about is around visualization, I guess. So it's about, um, you know, whilst you're in the moment, but also making yourself a little mental list of what you might want to do, um, when you finish, uh, which I've always, I've always kind of done and you give yourself a little mental promises. Um, yeah. And it goes back to that, give yourself a chat, really. They I've, I've listened to some of your previous podcasts, it's where you imagine what's happening next. So if you do something or you don't do something, what's that gonna mean? So, you know, in this case, for instance, you know, I want to go for a walk on the coast again, you know, that's what I will do, but then what I find is really important it's just to work for everyone is you've got to, you've got to follow up on that.
Speaker 2 00:03:42 I mean, I remember when, I mean, we, based on the army commander deal, alarms commander course, I remember a horrible digging exercise on that, which was just absolutely dreadful of me. People were dropping like flies. It was awful, but I'm getting series out. I promised myself, um, and it was wet and horrible and we thought we would dig in trenches. And you were having to kind of dig into the mud and scrape the mud off the shovel. It was just, uh, it was, it was, it was a show. It really was. And um, I promised myself, I'd go for Curry. And I said to her, don't worry when you finish this, you'll go into, you're going to go up to Exmouth and you're going to have a Curry boom. So I got back, we were all in absolute bits and no one would come for a Curry with me because it was Friday night.
Speaker 2 00:04:21 Everyone's kit. Was it? Everyone was, everyone was in bed. So when wanted slapped, but I was determined. So I booked a taxi and the taxi guy woke me up. I'm outside Livingston phones, like slump in the same, the taxi guy and Joey to the Curry house. I went into the Curry house. Um, I ordered Papa Dobbins at a, at a Kingfisher logger. And then the way to work for me up to take by made order. And basically the whole night was just like, Oh, it's time travel. I was working up between each meal and eventually woke up when I finished the pay my bill. And then once again, he woke me up to tell me the taxi drivers, the taxi driver took me home. I fell asleep immediately and the taxi woke me up to say, I was back at limps, did it. And I staggered. That's why I went to bed. But you know, I've made that promise to myself because I've made that promise and I've come through and I've done it. So I think my, I guess something deep inside, you believes you when you make these promises to yourself, if you, if you basically, if you make the promise and your body knows and your mind knows it's alive and why would it believe you? Why would you believe yourself if you don't follow through on it? So we found that's quite quite good thing to do really.
Speaker 0 00:05:28 I mean, it's one thing to promise yourself on an exercise on Dartmore when you know, okay, it might be Wednesday night or, you know, you're going to be in a shower by Friday, but when you're submerged, you know, and you, your family doesn't even know where you are on board a ship for, for security reasons. How do you kind of keep that going when you've got another former?
Speaker 2 00:05:48 Yeah, so, um, it it's quite, I mean it, and there's some of that surround the, you know, we've, we've both come to stoicism by, by different means, I think. Um, and I've found I've, I've come to stoicism by basically finding a, a mood of thinking. I think that just fits my own as opposed to starting off with the, you know, reading something and following it, I've kind of just, I've kind of fallen into a match. But, um, I was thinking about this recently. And if you think about, uh, um, what's causing people concern a lot of it's around that, the Stoics call it clarity about really understanding what you can control and what you can't. Um, and one of the interesting things about that for me, reflecting on being in a submarine is that it's not only understanding that it's being it's it's, people are scared of not having that control and agree really stark and on a submarine, of course, your circle of control becomes very clear to you when the hatch closes and the submarine dives, and that's it you'll circle of controllers suddenly, you know, it's 150 meters of, um, of, of British steel, um, underneath the water.
Speaker 2 00:06:53 And if you know, and it's a family guys, if there's a, you know, whatever happens, that's out of your control. So, you know, so there's, this things really there's that circle of control, there's that clarity of then understanding where those boundaries are. Um, and even on the submarine, you're bounded them by your role. So if you, I was a, it was a nuclear engineer at the back. So I did my best. I made the reactor work and made sure, you know, um, we had powered light. Uh, the people at the front were doing other things. They were fighting the submarine or steering the submarine, but I couldn't really worry about what they were doing. I had to worry about my bit. And I think that's, um, so you've got that clarity, but then there's also that acceptance. So once you've understood that, then you've got to put yourself into point of acceptance to say, you know, this, this is where I am.
Speaker 2 00:07:37 This is the now, um, I can, I can, I can be, I can rage with this. I can be upset with this, or I can accept this will go on for as long as it will and what can I do? And that's where I think that piece of, um, what I can do is I can do my GT. I can do the things, you know, whether it's at home now, you know, making sure you stay fair, doing your personal development, looking after your family spending time. So there's things that, you know, and I know that you've mentioned it as well doing what's right. When no one's looking, I can do my duty because I've got to understand that there's other people, um, and I'm, I'm in that, you know, I'm the opposite for them. And so someone will be sat there worrying about the nuclear reactor, but they they're trusting me to do my duty.
Speaker 2 00:08:19 Um, and that brings me on to the other thing. I think it's that sort of kindness thing is that you've got to then in your own head, imagine all these other people that are outside your circle of control and doing their duty, you got to put that trust in other human beings and have that kindness of thought that says, you know what, they're probably probably trying to do their best. Yeah. You know, I don't want to worry about that. So it's that trust, you know, do your bit, and so people can trust in you and then trust that others are doing there's really, I mean, I think if you can get to that point, that really, that, that can really help. And if I think about the current situation, you know, you know, people, I've got friends who are raging about what the government aren't doing, what people are not doing and stuff.
Speaker 2 00:08:58 And so you can't control that unless you're in that position, you can do what you can do, whether you are, whether you're a bin, man, you know, whereas I, working in trading, I can do my best knowing that other people are hoping that I do that. I don't know. You just got to trust that all of these people out there, um, with that sort of idea of kindness that you to give people the, um, you know, that they're good people, people are trying to do their best. No, one's out there generally trying to make this worse for everyone else. So we just, you just gotta, you just gotta let that happen and have that trust in other people. And I think that's what people find really hard. Um, they find it really hard. Cause as soon as that circle of control comes in, um, people don't like it, no one likes to lose control, um, because they, because it causes worry, I guess. So I think that submarine thing is really kind of helps you put picture into that mind space. Okay. This is one of those situations where I'm expected to do my thing. Um, and when things change, then I'll my circle of control or shrink maybe, or it will rage and then, then we'll do things different.
Speaker 0 00:09:56 Yeah. And, and I think it's, it's interesting. I mean the submariner experience, and I think I've talked about this before on my leisure programs, but also on previous episodes is that we can use a military example. We can use a sporting example and we might think, well, yeah, it's okay. Let's, that's a submarine, Mike, you know, it doesn't really apply it, but it's the example is so stark and the contrast is so you can see it and understand it. That actually it's how do you relate? Okay. So you're going, you're being submerged. Your circle is, is, could be huge, but your control is sure it's small, but doing the best in that, in those given circumstances is all that any of us can do. And it doesn't, you don't have to build a submarine to know that, but I think it just throws it into stark contrast.
Speaker 0 00:10:39 And we talk like that. It's interesting. You talk about the, um, um, just, um, hoping and, and, and others will do their best or just, you know, acknowledging people will do their best and you doing the best you can. And so we talked about sort of stoicism then, and yeah, for the key tenants of stoicism, courage, temperance wisdom, and virtue and virtue is to your point, you know, do your best, even if nobody's looking, because actually that's all you can do. And if that is all you do, then you are being of service to those people on board or in your family or whatever. And, um, we've both come to stoicism, very different means. And we kind of surprised us. We shouldn't have been surprised really that we both came to it, but we came to it through different ways. How, how did you come to stoicism or perhaps put another way? When did you realize that what you'd been doing all this time was stoicism.
Speaker 2 00:11:35 So it only, um, I grew up a Catholic, um, but that was a kind of imposed on me. And, um, so I lost, I lost, I lost my religion in a series of events. So my, um, my mum was a Catholic. Um, so we went to church and stuff. And so there was a thing where I just believed, you know, I didn't challenge it. I'm a scientist. I think, I think about, I like to think, I think about things in a scientific way. And then, but yet I was a Catholic and I used to put myself through all sorts of hell, you know, sort of boarding school and which admitted to boarding school or in the military to sort of defend this Catholicism. And, um, I guess a few things happened, one, um, I am, I, I, I fell in the eyes of God and sort of, I went there outside of marriage, um, and realized that was good.
Speaker 2 00:12:22 So that was, that was a plan that went and then, and then unfortunate, my mum died and said, when my mum died, that was really, that was really hard because then it became apparent that one of the reasons I'd never challenged the view was that challenging. The view is basically going up against your mom, your mom. Yeah. Cause that's what your mum believes. So it wasn't worse, you know, it's one of these things, you know what I always think with arguments, what CSU, how important is that to you? And if it's, if it's not an issue, let it go because you can move on. And then, and then he was issue with, so it was quite an important issue with me, but it was with my mom and I thought, well, actually the relationship with my mum is much more important. So just let it go.
Speaker 2 00:13:00 And then of course, when my mum died, that was no longer thought, this is quite an issue for me. And then there's no mum anymore. So I need to, I need to look at it, but actually I said, I'll tell you a quick other story. I was in, said, my moment of clarity, where I lost my face, I think finally was in Afghanistan. And I was working in and psychological operation in Afghanistan, which is kind of basically military propaganda. They don't like to call it. That sounds a bit scary. But, um, so I was running radio stations and running information campaigns and did all sorts of stuff in Helmand province. And I had to go out and meet the local Mullers who were doing a piece with them because the idea was that we get them to say things and get them on side. And that that'd be good.
Speaker 2 00:13:38 So, but I, so I dressed up in all my military care and we went in a convoy and we met these builders and I walked in and the Millers are in their full, full dress mullet dress, which is kind of, I guess that's not the correct term, but they were in a full ceremonial garb as if they were going to, um, you know, teaching the, uh, anyway. So I walked in, I looked at them and I, I chatted this guy and he was, he looked ridiculous really in this setting I was in and he was, you know, had this sort of gold or Nate clothes on. And he was saying to me that the problem here is that people aren't listening to people like me, they're not listening enough. And I was just looking in thinking, you know, you, you are absolutely crazy. I just, it just struck me.
Speaker 2 00:14:21 You actually crazily. And in my head, I then matched into a Bishop and he looked very similar to a Bishop. Um, and then I sort of had this, this stock saying, he's absolutely mad this guy. He's just, um, I dunno, as I went back to the base, I met the priest that we had a priest on the base and he was wearing his robe cause it was, um, it was Sunday and I thought you're just as crazy. And the only reason I've never really noticed this craziness before is because it was part of my upbringing and stuff. And it just really struck me that, you know, if I'd been brought up in Afghanistan, I would be happy to follow that model. And that, that was a moment when I thought actually, you know, this is, this is really cultural and not. So I started looking for something else, um, which, which wasn't reliant on sort of a big guy in the sky because my, um, my science, let me go there.
Speaker 2 00:15:07 So I kind of came to, so that's a lot, sorry. That was a bit of a long story. Wasn't it? So, um, but I kind of came to, um, uh, stoicism, I think via Buddhism because I was in that religious and I quite, you know, I got stuff from church. I did, you know, the spiritual side and I started looking at Buddhism because Buddhism seemed to be much more about the individual than about the budget. The Buddha was kind of a teacher and people have tried to make him a godlike figure, but I became a kind of, uh, kind of a cause I Buddhist and then a kind of a secular Buddhist. And then I started reading around that subject and I came across, you know, this sort of Western salt pose of the Stoics, which is actually very similar to a lot of the tenants of, um, but does it mean in terms of looking after yourself?
Speaker 2 00:15:50 And I guess I just, you know, through reading really just read myself and listening to podcasts and development that came from, I know I really stumbled upon the stoicism and I thought, yeah, that's, that's actually how I think that's quite similar to me. I, you know, boxing center, Colonel Latin, I read that study is not something that they've really got there. So it really shocked me that, you know, you know, we've kind of got, we've had, we've had this like thousands of thousands years ago, where's it gone? Cause it's so obvious, you know, the, just so obvious that you do things like kindness and virtue and all these things, um, and Stokes get a bad name as being sort of, you know, Taoists sort of, you know, everything's gonna end, you know, almost a chicken little type characters, but I think that's wrong because I think their whole, you know, remember you were mortal, you can put a different spin on that because, you know, if we really told everybody, if we told everyone that there was a meet you're about to hit the planet, you know, tomorrow morning at 2:00 AM the meat you seen the planet, then I'll tell you what people wouldn't be sat there being there there'd be a lot of partying going on.
Speaker 2 00:16:55 People would go for it. People would then say, well, I'm not going to bother with the business today. You know what, let's go and have some champagne on that Island. It was done set and stuff, you know, it just is isn't it that, that mortality, but then living a full life, knowing that that's coming, you know, gives you, should give you an edge for joy. I think,
Speaker 0 00:17:18 No, I totally agree with that. And it was interesting when we talk about our roots to stoicism. I, you know, if I kind of think about my way, I, I have, I'm a big believer that, you know, you gotta try before you buy. So I, I didn't grow up in a, in a religious sense, but when I left the army 12 years ago that I had a sense of, there was something missing, you know, you know, the, the team had now gone as now working for myself or how quite isolated. So I went to church and I explored church and I scored, uh, the alpha course, which is an introduction Christianity and everything else like this. And I know war it fully, you know, and, and I kind of embraced it, but it didn't really quite do anything for me. So I thought, okay, let's just try a different school of thought.
Speaker 0 00:17:59 Let's go hard over, let's go to sort of militant, atheism and, um, Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens and all that kind of stuff. And I got into that and the engineer and the scientist in me kind of resonated with that. But I thought that that seems a little bit too hard over because like you, I, I do like some of the more esoteric trappings I do. Like the fact that actually is not necessarily a belief in, in a day at T, but there is something beyond the self and, and, and, and it was really about everything that really resonated with actually, if it was in my control or if it makes me happy. So I got drawn to humanism and more sort of secular beliefs. And the more I did that, the more I realized actually happiness and fulfillment is within my control. And I think that's when I started to think about or come across stoicism, because I think when you go looking and you start to emerge.
Speaker 0 00:18:49 So I think I've probably found the daily stoic and Ryan holiday books and all that kind of stuff. And it was like, well, actually, yeah. Do you know what all these things that I enjoy about all these different attitudes and dogmas and paradigms have looked at, come down to actually, I could have that all now and stoicism is the practical element. I think it was the premise of it, which really kind of resonated with me. Um, and, and then it just starts to, I mean, it's fascinating that Mark has a radius, you know, most powerful man in the world back in the Roman empire was journaling every day and had the same insecurities that you and I have and about his relationships with his kids and all that, and thought about death. And when, when I kind of, sort of looked into that hole, so memento, Mori thing, remember you that you will die and therefore make the most of today, I was like, well, yeah, duh, he's extraordinary. So we kind of came to it and then just realized, well, this is pretty cool stuff. Isn't it? The momentum.
Speaker 2 00:19:47 I always think it's very interesting because you know, one of the quotes I remember reading is, you know, I'm always leave, always leaves a house like a soldier going to war in that you might not come home. And it's interesting, isn't it. So I used to go, you know, we pasted in the military and ready to go on a submarine before you go on that deployment, you then, you know, leaving the house is a big thing and ends people cry in scheduling and you know, and then, and then the submarine breaks you, but the next day, and then you have to go through it the day after, but you do a lot to make sure that everything's set, um, because your awareness submarine, if something happens, um, but then when you come back and even reflect, you know, you know, I've got probably more of a chance of dying in a car accident when I popped into the shops to get bread.
Speaker 2 00:20:30 So really you need to almost get yourself in that position on go. So Netherly, you know, in my, my grandma, you know, nowadays we used to call it me <inaudible> they had a 60 year wedding anniversary. You'd never fall asleep on an argument because you never know if the guy next to you might well wake up, that's it. But it's always about that. You know what you would do a lot. If you knew you were going away on a submarine or on a lot of world travel, but, but actually, you know, you go out and your car on it, you Steve fit, which is probably the way a lot of us will go. Um, it's the same, it's the same position. So why haven't you always, always leaves the house, like a soldier going to war. And then I think you can have very few regrets, cause it actually makes you do a few things as well. Change it, change a few bits.
Speaker 0 00:21:15 And that's the thing. I mean, you talked about how stoicism and the stoic can get a bit of a bad rap because we, we say, Oh, they've got a very stoic approach. They put up with hardship and they're very doubt. It's not that at all. In fact, I think stoicism is the ultimate expression of, of a happy life now in that taking control. But also the fact that actually we may not have another moment like this. So therefore make the most of this. And I think too many of us and myself included, we live, we think we're going to live forever and we'll get round to that and we'll do that because we've got all the time, but we don't, you know, every moment that passes is a moment that belongs to death. Now that's not morbid. That's just accepting that the clock is ticking. So what are you doing right now? Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:21:58 And, and, and flippantly as well for those outlets that like the gadgets like I do, and you do. And it's also very, a good, good argument to use with people like, um, partners and wives and stuff for, you know, when I, when I look at buying another bike and I get that, I get the feedback, you know, perhaps we should wait. I'm like, well, this is around the corner. My love, you know, we could wait and that'd be a great thing, but we, we might want to live in the now and get the, get the stuff in because God, I mean, I would, I would hate to sort of save, save this up when I can get an interest free credit and be enjoy it now.
Speaker 0 00:22:30 Well, okay. So I'm going to challenge is on that because that's bordered on headers, isn't headers and school of thought, but of those four kind of pillars of, of stoicism, this idea of temperance or moderation is a hard one, is that you okay? Yeah. You can go and live fully for now and absolutely. But is that, is that the right thing to do? Um, is that in any given moment and, and, you know, so the Stoics aren't about poo-pooing a party, but there is that kind of balance that idea of temporary temperance and moderation. Um, it's fair to say paint, you know, me a temporary, probably the hardest aspect of stoicism. I struggle. I mean, you have to honor the struggle, you know, the obvious thing the way mate, and that's yeah.
Speaker 2 00:23:18 People rarely say that goes, Mike, isn't he being tempered again,
Speaker 0 00:23:24 Having known you for 28 years or so. I think you're, you're far more, um, temporary now in some of the things that you're looking at then, and, and I think that perhaps comes with, but equally what I've really value and treasure and love about your Mike is, is your kind of outlook on life and, and, and the fun element. And we've had a lot of fun in the past. I mean, you just reminded me before, came on air here about our exploits in California skydiving. And do you remember the purpose does grabbing hold of each other and yahooing it.
Speaker 2 00:23:53 Yeah. Brilliant. That was absolutely going to Utah, man. Wow.
Speaker 0 00:23:58 There's that thing. So Johnny ITAR is a reference to point break our all time. Favorite film and Lord Patrick Swayze there. I just wonder if, um, if, if Bodhi was a stoic, I mean, he was bordering on Zen, wasn't he? But
Speaker 2 00:24:11 Yeah, I think he would have been, I actually, Patrick Swayze is a really interesting character that is he, he turned out to be a very sort of stoic individual with his, with his, um, with his illness he had yes. And just made me want to love him more, you know, his, the way he balled that sort of pancreatic council, I think. And he bought it really well, but some of the stuffing, some of the videos he made, um, and, but he, he really, he kept living in the now all the way to the end, which I think so. Um, and I just want to, I was just thinking that actually just popped into my head. But when we were talking about that spiritual side, so someone now, who was, he was, she was from South shields up in the North East. And, um, she lived in Canada and when she was in it, when I was growing up, we usually would have to go to church.
Speaker 2 00:24:54 She never did. No. See, now that you're how come you, you go to church, you need to get this golf thing. And she's like, I go to church every day. I spend a lot of time in church. She has. And she used to say to me, I always about, I must've been about six, seven. He says, every time I sit in my garden, she said, this is my church amongst nature. He says, you just look around. And she says, that's what that's, that's where God is. If he's anywhere, he's in my garden amongst my muses. And she's just saying, that was such a nice little thought, cause she always wants it to be her ashes scattered, but she, the way she just said it, now I go to church all the time. It's just, I just have a different one, but she knows. So it's about that finding that spirituality, but just finding it in the right place for you. Um, and I, and I think it's almost that finding it. So it doesn't, it doesn't, you have to impose on anyone else. Um, cause all my life, as you might like to let's, but let's not have this to have a religious woman come of age, your house at forcibly clocked raisers.
Speaker 0 00:25:52 It's a, it's an interesting one. Isn't it? I mean, I probably find the closest to being spiritual. Whatever that means for me is when I'm, when I'm out sort of running or racing at my own man and whatever, and it's completely, there's nothing else on the planet apart from in the moment that, which again, you know, that in the moment piece is, is a core tenant of it. There's, um, it's something I want to explore with it as well. And this idea of, um, one of the pillars of stoicism, this thing about courage, and we talk about moral courage and you and I going through the ministry. I mean, there's one thing they really hammered home to us. Um, so as, as a kind of light touch story, but then something quite some meaning for me, the first is, is, is, is a gift I gave to you, which was, um, I laid claim to the fact that I was the person that taught you how to I know.
Speaker 2 00:26:35 And he did, he did do that. But at the gift
Speaker 0 00:26:39 To me, what I think has been far more powerful and I'm not sure, I think I've about this with you, but perhaps I haven't reminded you recently. But so for the benefit of the listener, Sandoz is a year's worth of training in the first five weeks. It's pretty hard routine, isn't it? Mike there's, you know, you've got your whole room inspections. Your bedding has to be put in a certain way. Everything has to be buffed within an inch of its life. And it's a, it's a routine that breaks 30 young men down as individuals and starts to rebuild them into teen angry people, shouting at you, lots of angry people shouting at you, lots of late nights. Um, I remember not even sleeping on my bed because it had been, I didn't want to ruin the look of it. So we slept on the floor and all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 0 00:27:20 Absolutely. And then you fast forward towards the end of the time and you have the final excising, your third term and our color Sergeant John Wood, who is, has been a major influence on both you and I decided that we all needed to be taught a lesson. And, um, we were all getting a little bit too lax. So just to remind us of who's in charge, he put us back on that first five weeks, uh, to coin a commando phrase worth threaders. We were just really unhappy with it, but I never forget Mike. And I'm sure you remember this, that everyone was grumbling. Everyone was absolutely rumbling, but there was one person that went and knocked on the color side of the store and said, could I have a word please? Color Sergeant? And then all of us, the 29 other people. So this is you Mike, isn't it.
Speaker 0 00:28:06 The 29 other people took a sharp in inhalation of breath thinking, Oh my God, what's happening. And 15 minutes later called a silent word. And to his credit said, mr. Hoffman has just had a word with me and I have reassessed the situation and you're not on the hard routine anymore. And we were like, Mike, what the hell did you say to him? And you said, I think you started a conversation. Something like that kind of starting, I would expect better from a man like you or something like that. Now the reason I'm saying this might cause one to remind you. But I have used that example in all my leadership programs ever since to say, if you ever want an example of what moral courage is, it's that, and I don't know if you, if you knew that about it, but do you remember that story?
Speaker 2 00:28:49 Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I remember just what I remember. It was a little, um, I was just so angry, um, with, uh, he was angry. I was frustrated because I knew we were in one of these positions that I think people find it all the time where we'd all meet, we'd got into, we'd got into a domestic TIFF with the <inaudible>. It was a spot wasn't it. So he was in a bad way and we were in a bad way. And then we've suddenly fallen out and you think actually we've had a relationship that we've built over a year. There was just stuff going on and you know, everyone respected him and then it was all seemed to be going down the path and it's not ended like this is seven days. Yeah. It was like in the last six, 17 it's Reckitt and spoil everything.
Speaker 2 00:29:29 And I just sort of, um, and that, and it was just that frustration and that, and that sort of sadness really that, you know, it's going to end like this, you know, and it's that kind of, I'm going to go, we're going to have to go and say something, you know, this is, you know, it was literally, I mean, I can't remember the details of the conversation, but it was almost, you know, literally, you know, this isn't how it ends. It shouldn't be how it ends. Cause you know, you, you know, this should be, this is the fun Tommy we've done it. You've made your point a thousand times. You know, you know, when our relationships beyond that now, you know, I think we can, we can do more. So I think it was that sort of, and I really tried to sort of listen, you know, in my head I was trying to think of what he was thinking and he was obviously hurt. So I was trying to, you know, reflect back to him what he was feeling and I know you're hurt by what we did, but it wasn't intentional. And now this is just damaging the relationship where you're warm. So, so I think it was that, um, sort of trying to give him empathy that he will, you know, and, um, as well as money. I mean, I I've been having to give them a lot of money as a part of the story.
Speaker 2 00:30:34 I mean, it's, you know, the empathy and cash is a way,
Speaker 0 00:30:42 Is that where you left the ops training?
Speaker 2 00:30:44 Yeah, exactly. And it was, I think it was an empathy thing to sort of say to him, but, but, but the reason I think the more coach thing is interesting because it wasn't, was it more, I think, I guess it was more encouraged, um, in that he'd gone mental, but it was, but I was kind of, I was always pretending, cause I was kind of acting, I felt like I was acting on behalf, but the people and it's, it's, it's always easier. Um, courage, I think when you, you act on someone else's behalf, so it's almost often when you look at courage, you, if you, if you can then, you know, think beyond yourself. So I mean, you see it a hundred times, you know, um, parents turned themselves in front of their children and as soon as your, you know, would I, would I fight that whole or what Weiler?
Speaker 2 00:31:26 No, I'm, I'm, I'm scared of big, big, bad dogs. But if that dog was threatening someone, I loved, you said yes. So certainly the coach, the coach thing is really so when you, when you, when you can reframe what you're doing to be acting on the behalf of someone else, and ideally you are doing that, then I think you get a lot of courage from the fact that you're, you're doing it for not just yourself, but other people that, you know, this is, this is why this is happening. And then I think it becomes, um, almost no, no more coaches. You just don't, you know, you know, why wouldn't you do this issue and the power
Speaker 0 00:32:02 Interesting about that as well, because now you say this we'd force such a relationship with the man and for it to end like that, but then his reaction to that and coming out and having the humility and the vulnerability actually just increase this status, double that then. So the last few weeks of our time with him were just amazing.
Speaker 2 00:32:23 Yeah. Yeah. It was really good. It was really good. Um, and I think that's one of these, uh, you know, I mean, people talk about it in coaching, not coaching it's that it's that trying to listen to what's happening as the sounds that were coming out, the signals were you, he's angry, he's fucked up. And then you just thought there's actually, are we listening to what's happening? You know, he's hurt. We've, we've upset him in some way because he's not this person and trying to give him an out as well. Um, you know, and if, if I had to be the sacrificial lamb, luckily I wasn't, um, then that's fine if he can now. Um, and I think a lot of, um, you know, conflict happens like that. Everyone's stuck at this point where everyone would like an out, but no, one's really paid to make that first. So
Speaker 0 00:33:08 Yeah. And, and, and, and I think there's, uh, it's back to the circle of control piece as well. It's like, okay, well thinking, well, what, what can we do? Um, because the, the color zone there may have been a tendency for him to, just to have kind of just written that one out, improved his point, but then actually, so therefore nothing would have changed. So I think that's a really nice example. And let's say I've carried that with me, uh, an awful lot. And so, uh, and I hope that you've carried the fact that I taught you how to iron all this time. It's just having a look.
Speaker 2 00:33:39 I have. Yes, yes I do. Yes. Still in Brinkley, but I'm not sure it's advisable to,
Speaker 0 00:33:47 We're coming to the end of this, but we will have you back on a future date. Cause there's so many other kind of stories of, of nearly 30 years together, we can explore let's. Um, let's think about, um, leaving the listener with, with a few things that perhaps they might consider for, you know, those times when you have to give yourself the chat. What, what's your version of that on a moment by moment basis, either with your time now in corporate life or, or kind of back in the day?
Speaker 2 00:34:14 I think, um, when, so yeah, I thought about this, obviously it's a site title of the podcast and I think, um, uh, my, my version of the cha involves a visualization really, and I, and I, and I look back and do it quite a lot. So, um, and it's, it's around, it's around, you know, where, where you, where you'll be after the decision point, looking back. So whether you're going, you know, for an, in your head, you saw I'm going to do 10 K and you get to six K anything now, and you just, but you just, why am I naturally now pops forward to getting back to the house? And the two people are stood there. One has done 10, the one has done. And then, yeah, I know I don't want to be that guy. And, um, it was interesting actually, I just installed that, give yourself a chat or, you know, help give other people shout I'd exalt.
Speaker 2 00:35:08 I've got two teenage boys. One of them is, uh, Eaton he's, um, a lot bigger than me. I don't know how that happened. Um, it's not still going to me obviously, but he's bigger. Um, I would say, uh, we were watching, we watch one of these things y'all have enough stuff on TV. And I think it was about who's the hardest special forces. And they were, they were there, the huddle, the, the people in the water doing water press-ups and water bowls and sand. And there were, people have made a new, everyone was grown in eight of us, sat there and he was going about 40 13, I think. And, um, he's going to ask just rubbish. Why are they making such a fuss or could do though? It's just ridiculous. And I was like, mate, it's actually, you're not done anything like that. So it's quite a lot anyway.
Speaker 2 00:35:49 Um, I said, right, we live in Taunton. So tomorrow I'm taking you to the beach and we're going to do that anyway. So I went to wake him up at eight and um, I said, what come on. And he was really, as teenagers can be, auntie she's rubbish, don't want to do this anyway. So he was still smaller than me then. So we loaded it into car, went to mine, head in our full kit, run down just like a tracksuit bottoms and sort of ran down to beach. The people call it walking. It was, um, March, I think, um, we did 40 minutes of sit ups in the sea leopard cooling, which is kind of cooling, dragging your legs, press ups rolls that we were, we were sprints in the water. I was freezing. Anyway, we finished off at 40 minutes and we basically, that was, um, that was hard.
Speaker 2 00:36:39 It wasn't, it wasn't fun. And then we walked back up the beach, devil's looking at us, these two idiots. So then we, and then I took him from McDonald's and, um, as we were driving back, he was, he was, he was censhare he say, happy and easy don't I didn't warm up for about three days. My hand, I wasn't even covered in about 20 minutes, but it just any of that. So they give yourself a chat point. I said to him, I said, Ethan, what would you now say? What would you now, this personnel sat in the car having just done that 40 minutes, um, say to that kid that greet, admit your bedroom door this morning. And he just looked at me and he said, Oh, he said, Oh, I just punched him in the face. So I punch out kid with the faith.
Speaker 2 00:37:19 He said that he said, I would, what, what, what a snuggler? And I said, yeah, but you could have been that kid I could have left you. And that would have been you and you now I've given you stuff. Well, I helped cause these are very loud. But after that chat, you find that that chats that point where you could be at the point where one of you would want to punch the other one in the face, just because you, cause you you've made that decision. So, you know, he was really interesting. I would just punch him in the face and say, you need, you just got to get a grip of yourself, you know? And he was just that reflective. I think for me, that chat is always around that, you know, really hard to look and then you can do it quite quickly. You just play it forward in a sitting down to do, I'm going to do this video or whatever, sitting down, put yourself at lunchtime. One of you started, one of you has an hour, you know? So I think that's how I've always used that kind of giving myself a chat thing. I just put myself into the future and say, okay, which one of these is, which is which one of these would I be proud to meet now? Or want to show?
Speaker 0 00:38:24 Yeah, it does. I mean that links back to your own example on the, on the submarine or sorry on the commando exercise about actually there's a future there and how much better will that future be than this pain now? Um, how much better will I feel having gone for the run or, or stuck and deliver that done, worked on that project now as opposed to the pain and if you can connect to the future pleasure or just how much more painful it's going to be, if you didn't, then that's the root of it. I know it's different for everyone. It's interesting. You've now even now introduced the concept of not only give yourself the chat, but also give someone else the chat as well. So that's good. Mike, we've come to the end of our time now, mate. Um, as I said, we'll, we'll, we'll get you on a future episode to explore some of the other stories. Um, um, but thank you so much, mate, and thank you for your friendship over all these years. It's um, it's just, and I know this was your first podcast episode, so thank you very much for making I'll give yourself the chat.
Speaker 1 00:39:22 Damn that shit gone. I can't make take care of yourself. <inaudible>
Speaker 0 00:39:34 Because this has to be one of my favorite episodes so far, I guess there's always a risk. If you invite one of your best friends onto your podcast as to, you know, will the listener get as much enjoyment about the stories, particularly going back some 20 plus years that we share, will it become relevant and will it be enjoyable for you? The listener and, and I'm left convinced that actually there's so much gold in that discussion. We've just had so much value, um, be it about stoicism life philosophy or some of the lighter hearted moments that we shared. And I I'm indebted to Mike for the friendship and the love that we've shared as, as best mates over the years. And we'll continue to do. And I dare say we'll have him back on for a future podcast episode. Uh, but for the meantime, uh, conversation as ever is going on over at LinkedIn, please join the conversation, suggest future guests to me or any subjects you'd like me to explore. But in the meantime, keep yourself healthy, stay fit and well, and I'll see you on the next one.
